Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Live Today
Iraq: Two Years Later; Interview With Terri Schiavo's Brother
Aired March 18, 2005 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: The subpoena could forestall the removal of Schiavo's feeding tube, which is set to occur 90 minutes from now. And this caveat to the story. Moments ago, our Joe Johns was able to sit down and talk to Robert Schindler. He is Terri Schiavo's brother. Joe asked him what he thought of his sister being called to testify.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S BROTHER: ... love for the world to see Terri and see how alive she is. She has been mischaracterized in the media as a person being a vegetable, brain dead, and it is the farthest thing from the truth. Terri is very alive. She reacts. She just needs help and she needs therapy. So I would welcome the opportunity for Washington to see my sister. She can come to Washington. All she needs is to be transported and put in a wheelchair, but she could be here rather easily, so anybody can really see just how alive and how much she does interact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Another big story we've been following throughout the day comes from Augusta, Georgia. Investigators telling CNN they have learned nothing useful about the disappearance last month of 9-year- old Jessica Lunsford. That is based on five hours of questioning of John Couey, who was picked up yesterday as a person of interest. Couey, a convicted sex offender, has waived extradition to Florida.
In Montana, bond has been set at $500,000 for a man who allegedly plotted to kidnap David Letterman's young son. Authorities were tipped off to Kelly Frank, a painter who worked at Letterman's Montana ranch, by another man, whom Frank had allegedly approached about this particular scheme.
And in Iraq, a Kurdish politician expected to become the country's transitional president says that he expects a new government to be formed next week. Jalal Talabani tells CNN's Aneesh Raman that key leadership post will be filled when the national assembly convenes again on March 25th or March 26th.
SANCHEZ: This weekend, in fact, marks two years since the U.S. invasion of Iraq and today in that country, the struggle is focused on forming a government and somehow trying to end the insurgency. CNN's Aneesh Raman joins us now from Baghdad to bring us up-to-date on what he's been learning, including your conversation with Mr. Talabani -- Aneesh. ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Rick, good morning to you. It really is the dual existence of the reality on the ground here in Baghdad. Phenomenal political reform taking place amidst ongoing violence. I spoke with Jalal Talabani, the Kurd widely expected to be the next president of Iraq, about the political process.
He said he expects the national assembly, which convened a few days ago, to reconvene next week. At that moment, they will put forth names for the top positions. Ibrahim al Jaafari will be prime minister; Talabani, president. They are looking for a Sunni to fill the vital void -- role of speaker of the national assembly. No name yet on that.
He essentially said that talks have been finalized between the Kurds and the Shi'a -- that had been what was holding up negotiations -- as they now try to form a unity government to bring on secular politicians like Ayad Allawi's national list, as well as the Sunnis and really try to get as many people on board as they push forward with this final step towards a permanent democracy.
Now, with that said, security does remain a real issue on the ground, basic services for Iraqis, two years on from the war. Still something that is difficult to handle. Electricity, water, the traffic. Their reality of life here hasn't changed drastically in terms of the logistics of daily life. Still two years on. Also U.S. troops remain on the ground, some 150,000 of them. I asked Talabani specifically about any timeline he envisioned for coalition troops to withdraw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JALAL TALABANI, KURDISH LEADER: I think the new government will take more defensive measures against the terrorism, which is, if it's coming from any place, not only Jordan. I don't like to mention the countries which the terrorists are now using it, but we will be really ready to face all kinds of terrorism, and we will be very frank with those who are supporting terrorism in Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAMAN: So he's hoping that if Iraqi forces can say try and grasp hold of the insurgency, U.S. forces could start downplaying their role. He also said he envisions coalition forces moving outside of the cities to specify bases, while the Iraqi forces really bear the brunt of dealing with the insurgency. So a complex situation on the ground for all of these politicians, Rick. They're fully aware of the huge difficulties that lie ahead.
SANCHEZ: Aneesh Raman, we thank you.
The Iraq War started with a bang. In fact, remember this? It was a fiery and noisy nighttime attack on the heart of Baghdad. The fiercesome shock and awe campaign, as it was called, tried to kill Saddam Hussein and his top aides. We know now how it began. The big question for Americans is, how will it end? When will it end? When will the troops come home? Let's talk about that with retired Air Force Major General Don Shepperd, our CNN military analyst. He's joining us from Tucson, Arizona, this morning. General, thanks so much for being with us, sir. And let's start with that very question that so many people have. When will we start to see the beginning of the end of this war, at least the U.S. involvement in it?
MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): Rick, I think you're seeing the beginning of the end in front of our very eyes. We always look for tipping points. And these tipping points aren't always obvious, but it's starting to happen very slowly. The formation of the Iraqi government, the election itself, the fact that the Iraqis are getting stronger and taking over more of their defense. I think you will start to see some troop withdrawals of coalition forces here, including U.S., in '05 and I think you will see larger force withdrawals in '06, although we'll be around for some time.
SANCHEZ: Although politically, we're starting to see good signs, security wise, we're not, because it's taking an awful long time, isn't it, to try and train some of the Iraqi security officers, police officers and soldiers?
SHEPPERD: Rick, that's been a disappointing factor, how long it's taken to train these forces. Probably one of the really important major mistakes that was made during the war was the disbanding of the Iraqi army. Although Ambassador Bremmer (ph) makes a very good arugment that it had been assembled and had to be disassembled, I think we could have vetted the top leadership and kept it in, reduced the unemployment and had better security across the country.
That having been said, the Iraqi forces themselves are getting better. They're getting better slowly. The key to this is to us to withdraw out of the cities and have them take over the cities themselves in security. They will do a much better job. They know who the foreigners are, they know who troublemakers are, and their justice will be much swifter and much harsher than anything we could administer.
SANCHEZ: Looking back on it now, General, didn't we miscalculate by thinking that we would not meet resistance once the offensive was over?
SHEPPERD: I think the heart of the question there, Rick, is did we have enough troops with what we encountered during and after the war? I think all of us -- I don't think anybody expected that this long an insurgency or this difficult an insurgency. So a mistake was made there in our perceptions of what would happen.
On the other hand, I think we had enough troops to conduct the war and there are many arguments that we should have had more troops to produce the security. I don't think any number of reasonably available United States or coalition forces could have kept security across that country. It would have delayed the insurgency, but we'd still see exactly what's happening now and there would be more troops with more targets and a longer occupation. SANCHEZ: How long and will Iraq eventually become a permanent military base for the United States? Those two questions to finish the interview.
SHEPPERD: Yes. Secretary Rice was asked the same question today and she didn't make any commitments as far as when we would withdraw or would we maintain regular bases. The question is, will we maintain bases in the area, yes. Will they be in Iraq? If they are in Iraq, it's probably well outside the cities and in the Kurdish area, still to be decided. And the new Iraqi government will have a lot to say about that -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: General Shepperd, as usual, sir, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us.
SHEPPERD: My pleasure.
SANCHEZ: We certainly appreciate it.
Once again, we have had developments in a very important story that we've been following for you regarding Terri Schiavo. The deadline for removing her tubes is at 1:00 p.m. Eastern time. So any new information on this story that comes in, we'll get it to you right away. With some of that, we lead you to a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We have an opportunity now to do an exclusive interview with the brother of Terri Schiavo. Terri Schiavo, as you know, scheduled to have her feeding tubes removed at 1:00 p.m. Bobby Schindler is good enough to join to us give us perspective on his impressions on Congress calling his sister to testify.
First of all, Mr. Schindler, would you be good enough to characterize for us your sister's condition?
ROBERT SCHINDLER, BROTHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: Sure. You know, Terri, I've been saying it over and over again, Terri has really been mischaracterized in the media, her condition. She's very much alive; she's on no life support whatsoever. She's not on a respirator. The only difference between Terri and us, is she receives her today through a tube, a gastric tube that's connected to her stomach.
Now we have doctors that believe if Terri was just given rehabilitation and therapy, she would not need the feeding tube, that she could ingest food by mouth, but she's been denied therapy now for over 12 years by her husband, and really our family has been asking just to provide Terri with some rehabilitation and some help so she could improve.
SANCHEZ: Well, let's try and delineate this down a little bit if we possibly can for us. In the last 14 years, when she's been in this condition, have you ever been able to have a conversation with her?
SCHINDLER: Well, yes. When we go see Terri, we go in and speak to her, and she immediately begins to communicate with us. Again, there have been doctors that have testified...
SANCHEZ: How does she communicate with you, if you don't mind me asking?
SCHINDLER: Not at all. When we talk to her, she immediately begins to make these sort of like guttural noises, where she is trying to the best of her ability to speak to us.
There was a time, in her medical documents, back in the early '90s, when she was receiving rehabilitation, the doctors were noting she was actually forming words.
Now, all of her rehabilitation has stopped. So now when she does try to communicate with us, it's very hard for us to understand what she's saying. But doctors looked at the tapes of Terri. But doctors have examined her, and they believe she is speaking right now and just needs some therapy to help her communicate where we can understand what she's saying.
SANCHEZ: So you're convinced when you talk to your sister, she understands what you're saying and she's even responding to you?
SCHINDLER: I am totally convinced that Terri is very aware of what we're saying. And you know, we understand, Terri has a disability. She's profoundly disabled, but she can be helped, and we were just asking, you know, Michael, her's estranged husband, to give us the opportunity to allow the doctors to come in there and try to help and give her the therapy she deserves.
SANCHEZ: Well, let's go to the heart of the matter here, because you use the term disabled, but there are two lower courts have who have pronounced that your sister is indeed in a persistent vegetative state. Those are two very different terms. In fact, they conflict, wouldn't you say?
SCHINDLER: Well, I would. But if people would learn the facts of the case, and I'm not exaggerating when I tell you this number.
SANCHEZ: Let me just stop you there if you don't mind, because I asked you specifically about the court's ruling, and you said people. Would you say that those courts were wrong, and if so, how could they be so wrong?
SCHINDLER: Well, it's the court. It's primarily Judge George Wehr, and he's sided with Michael's doctors, that have testified that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state, and these are three doctors at the trial. Since then and during this time this trial has been going on for five years now, we now have 33 doctors that have come forward, that have either examined Terri or submitted affidavits that are adamant that Terri is not in this condition that these doctors have testified that she's in, and that if she was just given the opportunity to have some rehabilitation therapy, she would improve significantly. And these doctors are from some of the best institutions in the country. I urge everybody to read these affidavits. They're posted on Terri's Web site. SANCHEZ: Do you think if she was to stand before this commission and testify before them that she would be able to perceive what they're asking her? Do you think she would be able to somehow communicate with them? Is that the impression that the American people would get from this testimony that she may give, the same one that you've been sharing with us that you give when you talk to your sister?
SCHINDLER: Yes, I'm totally convinced if people would just have the opportunity to see Terri, they would understand why so many people are outraged why they're trying to starve this young woman to death.
You know, there's a reason why Michael and his attorneys are trying so hard to sequester Terri in a room where there's no videos allowed to be taken. She has not been outside now in five years. There's a reason they are trying to shard to keep her out of the public eye, and if we had the opportunity to bring her to Washington, everybody can see just how alive my sister is, I think people would have quite a different feeling on the person that they're trying to starve to death.
SANCHEZ: What message would you send to your former brother-in- law? What would you say to Michael?
SCHINDLER: Well, you know, I'm just asking him, you know, he has two children, he's been with another person for 10 years, take care of your family and allow Terri to take care of ours, and I'm urging people to please contact their senators and their Congressmen, and ask them to please push through one of these bills. There's two bills that exist right now. They're obviously trying to save Terri's life. They need to square out their differences and pass something that will help save my sister's life.
SANCHEZ: Just quickly before I let you go, when was the last time you spoke with him directly?
SCHINDLER: Who? Michael Schiavo?
SANCHEZ: Michael Schiavo.
SCHINDLER: It's been many years, but I leave an open invitation to speak with Michael and sit down and try to work this out at any time.
SANCHEZ: Bobby Schindler, we thank you for taking the time to talk to us, and we'll certainly continue to follow this story for you.
SCHINDLER: Thank you very much.
SANCHEZ: Let's go now to Carol Lin. She's standing by outside the hospice, where Terri Schiavo's being held, where she may end up traveling to Washington from. You heard the conversation, your reaction?
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: My reaction to what the brother has said is very interesting, because Michael Schiavo, the husband, recently gave an interview with the local newspaper, as well as to another network, stating that when you go into Terri Schiavo's room and you speak to her, she is only giving very primal reactions, that he denies the characterizations that the family has been making to the media, that she is able in her own way to communicate. He feels they are simply projecting their best hopes on her.
So it is interesting to hear from the family. We have not heard directly from the husband yet, but I do have to tell you about late- breaking developments, Rick. The attorneys, including the senior council for the House of Representatives is meeting at about 12:30, so in about 45 minutes, in the courtroom of we Panella (ph) circuit court Judge George Wehr, the very same judge, that Robert Schindler, Bobby Schindler there, was criticizing, to go over the exact wording and nature of this subpoena.
Rick, they're cutting it very close, and they admit. By 12:30, they're going to be meeting. By 1:00, who knows what's going to happen with this court order, whether they will have to remove her tube or not. The anticipation is that this subpoena may be enough to buy more time, and that Terri Schiavo may very well be seen before the U.S. House of Representatives -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: So help us to understand this if we possibly can, because this is another very important argument. We hear Bobby Schindler saying, look, my sister reacts to me, and I know that she's reacting to me and she understands what I'm saying. We hear Michael Creighton saying a different story. Is Michael Creighton's story or -- pardon me, Michael Schiavo's story, I misspoke, that her responses are not really cognitive, that they're just guttural noises that she's making?
LIN: Yes, that they are simply guttural, primal, you know, almost reflexive actions, that they are not, in a sense, a call and response on Terri Schiavo's part. He also has criticized some of the so-called experts that the family has presented in court over time. The family has talked about some 33 doctors have examined Terri Schiavo. The husband in these interviews has said no, some of them have only looked at a photograph of Terri Schiavo, that they have not each and individually gone to physically examine her.
So you know, there two are sides to this story, and so much emotion, when you talk about a family which has battled for 10 years. Michael Schiavo did confirm that he had been offered as much as $10 million last week to sign away his guardianship to the parents, right, because the question would be, well, look, if you for all intents and purposes think that Terri Schiavo is all but dead, why not give the guardianship over to the people who want too care for her? He said this is not a matter of money, and that this proves it. He declined the $10 million offer. He said that this was a matter of principle. He claims that this is what Terri wanted, despite not writing it down in a living will.
SANCHEZ: Carol Lin, following the story there from outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo is. What an interesting question, if she is indeed called before the commission to testify, and I guess then the entire nation will be able to judge for themselves. We are following this story and many others. We're taking a break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: A week ago today the courthouse shooting rampage occurred in Atlanta, Georgia. Police blame Brian Nichols for four deaths in the 26 hours that he was on the run from the law.
Today, Atlanta's mayor and police chief, they laid out the timeline for events from last friday, and it starts from the time that Nichols allegedly overpowered a female deputy in a holding area as he waited for his rape trial.
One of the odder parts of the story: The car police say that Nichols hijacked in a parking garage, he allegedly drove it down one floor, parked it and then walked on foot -- left on foot, I should say. Police didn't realize it until many hours later.
Let's do this: Let's bring in our law enforcement analyst, Mike Brooks, now to talk about this. And if we can, let's put this up on the screen, and you and I will look at it. This is what they revealed to us today. Are you ready?
9:05, CITIZEN: "Officer down." 9:06, Atlanta Police Department arrived at the scene. 9:11, Atlanta Fire Department arrives at the scene.. 9:30, Atlanta police find the judge and a court reporter shot.
Not until 9:45 do Atlanta police take control of this scene. To you.
MIKE BROOKS, LEGAL ANALYST: And that's almost an hour after the initial shooting, the initial -- the initial assault occurred in the courtroom. That's over an hour. And then the thing that, you know, people sit back and Monday morning quarterback, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Of course. There was a lot going on.
BROOKS: There was a lot going on. Having been a cop for 26 years, I can tell you, you know, we had manhunts in D.C. all the time. Chief Pennington, Alan Drayer, the assistant chief, they're both from D.C. They were with the Metropolitan Police Department before they came down to Atlanta. I can tell you, if that were the case, especially in a parking garage, that car -- as soon as you have a victim there in the parking garage, that is a crime scene. The whole parking garage is a crime scene.
SANCHEZ: How important is its for these agencies to communicate with each other? And did they do it effectively, because I know they had a system for Fulton County to talk to the Atlanta Police Department, but did they actually go through with it?
BROOKS: No, they didn't. It sounds -- in talking to officials on both sides, no, they didn't. One thing they have is an incident command system. It wasn't done very well at this particular juncture on this particular case. And, you know, the information, the flow of intelligence -- they had information from the victim whose car was hijacked. That Honda Accord that everybody was looking for almost 12 hours, they had information from him that Nichols asked him where Buckhead was. How do you get up to Lennox Mall, that area.
SANCHEZ: That information was never passed off to the people who were actually doing the manhunt.
BROOKS: Never relayed. Never relayed. And he came up, he had no shirt on. That was given too. Now, he didn't have a shirt on. Where is the shirt he had? You know, that shirt he had on could have blood evidence, could have anything else.
The commander should have blocked off that parking garage, done a level-to-level search, car-to-car search, brought in a S.W.A.T. team. You had Fulton County. You had Atlanta. You had FBI on the scene by that time.
SANCHEZ: But let me ask you before we run out of time, even before we got to that point, inside the courthouse itself, why did it take so long from them to know that this man left the cell and confronted and accosted an officer?
BROOKS: There were cameras inside the room where the deputy was -- where she was overtaken. Nobody was watching the cameras. It was just --
SANCHEZ: But why would you have cameras set up and have no one monitor them, Mike?
BROOKS: That's a good question. That's a good question.
SANCHEZ: That is a good question.
BROOKS: And I tell you, they're going back over -- they're going back over everything that they've done. There are other departments across the country that are re-looking -- that are looking at their procedures to make sure that doesn't happen in their department.
SANCHEZ: Maybe in the end, they'll learn from it and improve.
BROOKS: I sure hope so.
SANCHEZ: Certainly something positive can come out. Mike Brooks, thanks so much for helping us out with this.
BROOKS: Thanks, Rick.
SANCHEZ: In fact, talking of this story -- talking about this story a little bit, we're going to leave you now with some pictures having to do with one of the deputies who lost his life when he was trying to chase Mr. Nichols outside the courtroom on that day. This is Hoyt Teasley. His funeral going on as we speak. We leave you in fact with these pictures as we say adieu.
Wolf Blitzer, coming up next. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired March 18, 2005 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: The subpoena could forestall the removal of Schiavo's feeding tube, which is set to occur 90 minutes from now. And this caveat to the story. Moments ago, our Joe Johns was able to sit down and talk to Robert Schindler. He is Terri Schiavo's brother. Joe asked him what he thought of his sister being called to testify.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S BROTHER: ... love for the world to see Terri and see how alive she is. She has been mischaracterized in the media as a person being a vegetable, brain dead, and it is the farthest thing from the truth. Terri is very alive. She reacts. She just needs help and she needs therapy. So I would welcome the opportunity for Washington to see my sister. She can come to Washington. All she needs is to be transported and put in a wheelchair, but she could be here rather easily, so anybody can really see just how alive and how much she does interact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Another big story we've been following throughout the day comes from Augusta, Georgia. Investigators telling CNN they have learned nothing useful about the disappearance last month of 9-year- old Jessica Lunsford. That is based on five hours of questioning of John Couey, who was picked up yesterday as a person of interest. Couey, a convicted sex offender, has waived extradition to Florida.
In Montana, bond has been set at $500,000 for a man who allegedly plotted to kidnap David Letterman's young son. Authorities were tipped off to Kelly Frank, a painter who worked at Letterman's Montana ranch, by another man, whom Frank had allegedly approached about this particular scheme.
And in Iraq, a Kurdish politician expected to become the country's transitional president says that he expects a new government to be formed next week. Jalal Talabani tells CNN's Aneesh Raman that key leadership post will be filled when the national assembly convenes again on March 25th or March 26th.
SANCHEZ: This weekend, in fact, marks two years since the U.S. invasion of Iraq and today in that country, the struggle is focused on forming a government and somehow trying to end the insurgency. CNN's Aneesh Raman joins us now from Baghdad to bring us up-to-date on what he's been learning, including your conversation with Mr. Talabani -- Aneesh. ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Rick, good morning to you. It really is the dual existence of the reality on the ground here in Baghdad. Phenomenal political reform taking place amidst ongoing violence. I spoke with Jalal Talabani, the Kurd widely expected to be the next president of Iraq, about the political process.
He said he expects the national assembly, which convened a few days ago, to reconvene next week. At that moment, they will put forth names for the top positions. Ibrahim al Jaafari will be prime minister; Talabani, president. They are looking for a Sunni to fill the vital void -- role of speaker of the national assembly. No name yet on that.
He essentially said that talks have been finalized between the Kurds and the Shi'a -- that had been what was holding up negotiations -- as they now try to form a unity government to bring on secular politicians like Ayad Allawi's national list, as well as the Sunnis and really try to get as many people on board as they push forward with this final step towards a permanent democracy.
Now, with that said, security does remain a real issue on the ground, basic services for Iraqis, two years on from the war. Still something that is difficult to handle. Electricity, water, the traffic. Their reality of life here hasn't changed drastically in terms of the logistics of daily life. Still two years on. Also U.S. troops remain on the ground, some 150,000 of them. I asked Talabani specifically about any timeline he envisioned for coalition troops to withdraw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JALAL TALABANI, KURDISH LEADER: I think the new government will take more defensive measures against the terrorism, which is, if it's coming from any place, not only Jordan. I don't like to mention the countries which the terrorists are now using it, but we will be really ready to face all kinds of terrorism, and we will be very frank with those who are supporting terrorism in Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAMAN: So he's hoping that if Iraqi forces can say try and grasp hold of the insurgency, U.S. forces could start downplaying their role. He also said he envisions coalition forces moving outside of the cities to specify bases, while the Iraqi forces really bear the brunt of dealing with the insurgency. So a complex situation on the ground for all of these politicians, Rick. They're fully aware of the huge difficulties that lie ahead.
SANCHEZ: Aneesh Raman, we thank you.
The Iraq War started with a bang. In fact, remember this? It was a fiery and noisy nighttime attack on the heart of Baghdad. The fiercesome shock and awe campaign, as it was called, tried to kill Saddam Hussein and his top aides. We know now how it began. The big question for Americans is, how will it end? When will it end? When will the troops come home? Let's talk about that with retired Air Force Major General Don Shepperd, our CNN military analyst. He's joining us from Tucson, Arizona, this morning. General, thanks so much for being with us, sir. And let's start with that very question that so many people have. When will we start to see the beginning of the end of this war, at least the U.S. involvement in it?
MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): Rick, I think you're seeing the beginning of the end in front of our very eyes. We always look for tipping points. And these tipping points aren't always obvious, but it's starting to happen very slowly. The formation of the Iraqi government, the election itself, the fact that the Iraqis are getting stronger and taking over more of their defense. I think you will start to see some troop withdrawals of coalition forces here, including U.S., in '05 and I think you will see larger force withdrawals in '06, although we'll be around for some time.
SANCHEZ: Although politically, we're starting to see good signs, security wise, we're not, because it's taking an awful long time, isn't it, to try and train some of the Iraqi security officers, police officers and soldiers?
SHEPPERD: Rick, that's been a disappointing factor, how long it's taken to train these forces. Probably one of the really important major mistakes that was made during the war was the disbanding of the Iraqi army. Although Ambassador Bremmer (ph) makes a very good arugment that it had been assembled and had to be disassembled, I think we could have vetted the top leadership and kept it in, reduced the unemployment and had better security across the country.
That having been said, the Iraqi forces themselves are getting better. They're getting better slowly. The key to this is to us to withdraw out of the cities and have them take over the cities themselves in security. They will do a much better job. They know who the foreigners are, they know who troublemakers are, and their justice will be much swifter and much harsher than anything we could administer.
SANCHEZ: Looking back on it now, General, didn't we miscalculate by thinking that we would not meet resistance once the offensive was over?
SHEPPERD: I think the heart of the question there, Rick, is did we have enough troops with what we encountered during and after the war? I think all of us -- I don't think anybody expected that this long an insurgency or this difficult an insurgency. So a mistake was made there in our perceptions of what would happen.
On the other hand, I think we had enough troops to conduct the war and there are many arguments that we should have had more troops to produce the security. I don't think any number of reasonably available United States or coalition forces could have kept security across that country. It would have delayed the insurgency, but we'd still see exactly what's happening now and there would be more troops with more targets and a longer occupation. SANCHEZ: How long and will Iraq eventually become a permanent military base for the United States? Those two questions to finish the interview.
SHEPPERD: Yes. Secretary Rice was asked the same question today and she didn't make any commitments as far as when we would withdraw or would we maintain regular bases. The question is, will we maintain bases in the area, yes. Will they be in Iraq? If they are in Iraq, it's probably well outside the cities and in the Kurdish area, still to be decided. And the new Iraqi government will have a lot to say about that -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: General Shepperd, as usual, sir, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us.
SHEPPERD: My pleasure.
SANCHEZ: We certainly appreciate it.
Once again, we have had developments in a very important story that we've been following for you regarding Terri Schiavo. The deadline for removing her tubes is at 1:00 p.m. Eastern time. So any new information on this story that comes in, we'll get it to you right away. With some of that, we lead you to a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We have an opportunity now to do an exclusive interview with the brother of Terri Schiavo. Terri Schiavo, as you know, scheduled to have her feeding tubes removed at 1:00 p.m. Bobby Schindler is good enough to join to us give us perspective on his impressions on Congress calling his sister to testify.
First of all, Mr. Schindler, would you be good enough to characterize for us your sister's condition?
ROBERT SCHINDLER, BROTHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: Sure. You know, Terri, I've been saying it over and over again, Terri has really been mischaracterized in the media, her condition. She's very much alive; she's on no life support whatsoever. She's not on a respirator. The only difference between Terri and us, is she receives her today through a tube, a gastric tube that's connected to her stomach.
Now we have doctors that believe if Terri was just given rehabilitation and therapy, she would not need the feeding tube, that she could ingest food by mouth, but she's been denied therapy now for over 12 years by her husband, and really our family has been asking just to provide Terri with some rehabilitation and some help so she could improve.
SANCHEZ: Well, let's try and delineate this down a little bit if we possibly can for us. In the last 14 years, when she's been in this condition, have you ever been able to have a conversation with her?
SCHINDLER: Well, yes. When we go see Terri, we go in and speak to her, and she immediately begins to communicate with us. Again, there have been doctors that have testified...
SANCHEZ: How does she communicate with you, if you don't mind me asking?
SCHINDLER: Not at all. When we talk to her, she immediately begins to make these sort of like guttural noises, where she is trying to the best of her ability to speak to us.
There was a time, in her medical documents, back in the early '90s, when she was receiving rehabilitation, the doctors were noting she was actually forming words.
Now, all of her rehabilitation has stopped. So now when she does try to communicate with us, it's very hard for us to understand what she's saying. But doctors looked at the tapes of Terri. But doctors have examined her, and they believe she is speaking right now and just needs some therapy to help her communicate where we can understand what she's saying.
SANCHEZ: So you're convinced when you talk to your sister, she understands what you're saying and she's even responding to you?
SCHINDLER: I am totally convinced that Terri is very aware of what we're saying. And you know, we understand, Terri has a disability. She's profoundly disabled, but she can be helped, and we were just asking, you know, Michael, her's estranged husband, to give us the opportunity to allow the doctors to come in there and try to help and give her the therapy she deserves.
SANCHEZ: Well, let's go to the heart of the matter here, because you use the term disabled, but there are two lower courts have who have pronounced that your sister is indeed in a persistent vegetative state. Those are two very different terms. In fact, they conflict, wouldn't you say?
SCHINDLER: Well, I would. But if people would learn the facts of the case, and I'm not exaggerating when I tell you this number.
SANCHEZ: Let me just stop you there if you don't mind, because I asked you specifically about the court's ruling, and you said people. Would you say that those courts were wrong, and if so, how could they be so wrong?
SCHINDLER: Well, it's the court. It's primarily Judge George Wehr, and he's sided with Michael's doctors, that have testified that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state, and these are three doctors at the trial. Since then and during this time this trial has been going on for five years now, we now have 33 doctors that have come forward, that have either examined Terri or submitted affidavits that are adamant that Terri is not in this condition that these doctors have testified that she's in, and that if she was just given the opportunity to have some rehabilitation therapy, she would improve significantly. And these doctors are from some of the best institutions in the country. I urge everybody to read these affidavits. They're posted on Terri's Web site. SANCHEZ: Do you think if she was to stand before this commission and testify before them that she would be able to perceive what they're asking her? Do you think she would be able to somehow communicate with them? Is that the impression that the American people would get from this testimony that she may give, the same one that you've been sharing with us that you give when you talk to your sister?
SCHINDLER: Yes, I'm totally convinced if people would just have the opportunity to see Terri, they would understand why so many people are outraged why they're trying to starve this young woman to death.
You know, there's a reason why Michael and his attorneys are trying so hard to sequester Terri in a room where there's no videos allowed to be taken. She has not been outside now in five years. There's a reason they are trying to shard to keep her out of the public eye, and if we had the opportunity to bring her to Washington, everybody can see just how alive my sister is, I think people would have quite a different feeling on the person that they're trying to starve to death.
SANCHEZ: What message would you send to your former brother-in- law? What would you say to Michael?
SCHINDLER: Well, you know, I'm just asking him, you know, he has two children, he's been with another person for 10 years, take care of your family and allow Terri to take care of ours, and I'm urging people to please contact their senators and their Congressmen, and ask them to please push through one of these bills. There's two bills that exist right now. They're obviously trying to save Terri's life. They need to square out their differences and pass something that will help save my sister's life.
SANCHEZ: Just quickly before I let you go, when was the last time you spoke with him directly?
SCHINDLER: Who? Michael Schiavo?
SANCHEZ: Michael Schiavo.
SCHINDLER: It's been many years, but I leave an open invitation to speak with Michael and sit down and try to work this out at any time.
SANCHEZ: Bobby Schindler, we thank you for taking the time to talk to us, and we'll certainly continue to follow this story for you.
SCHINDLER: Thank you very much.
SANCHEZ: Let's go now to Carol Lin. She's standing by outside the hospice, where Terri Schiavo's being held, where she may end up traveling to Washington from. You heard the conversation, your reaction?
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: My reaction to what the brother has said is very interesting, because Michael Schiavo, the husband, recently gave an interview with the local newspaper, as well as to another network, stating that when you go into Terri Schiavo's room and you speak to her, she is only giving very primal reactions, that he denies the characterizations that the family has been making to the media, that she is able in her own way to communicate. He feels they are simply projecting their best hopes on her.
So it is interesting to hear from the family. We have not heard directly from the husband yet, but I do have to tell you about late- breaking developments, Rick. The attorneys, including the senior council for the House of Representatives is meeting at about 12:30, so in about 45 minutes, in the courtroom of we Panella (ph) circuit court Judge George Wehr, the very same judge, that Robert Schindler, Bobby Schindler there, was criticizing, to go over the exact wording and nature of this subpoena.
Rick, they're cutting it very close, and they admit. By 12:30, they're going to be meeting. By 1:00, who knows what's going to happen with this court order, whether they will have to remove her tube or not. The anticipation is that this subpoena may be enough to buy more time, and that Terri Schiavo may very well be seen before the U.S. House of Representatives -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: So help us to understand this if we possibly can, because this is another very important argument. We hear Bobby Schindler saying, look, my sister reacts to me, and I know that she's reacting to me and she understands what I'm saying. We hear Michael Creighton saying a different story. Is Michael Creighton's story or -- pardon me, Michael Schiavo's story, I misspoke, that her responses are not really cognitive, that they're just guttural noises that she's making?
LIN: Yes, that they are simply guttural, primal, you know, almost reflexive actions, that they are not, in a sense, a call and response on Terri Schiavo's part. He also has criticized some of the so-called experts that the family has presented in court over time. The family has talked about some 33 doctors have examined Terri Schiavo. The husband in these interviews has said no, some of them have only looked at a photograph of Terri Schiavo, that they have not each and individually gone to physically examine her.
So you know, there two are sides to this story, and so much emotion, when you talk about a family which has battled for 10 years. Michael Schiavo did confirm that he had been offered as much as $10 million last week to sign away his guardianship to the parents, right, because the question would be, well, look, if you for all intents and purposes think that Terri Schiavo is all but dead, why not give the guardianship over to the people who want too care for her? He said this is not a matter of money, and that this proves it. He declined the $10 million offer. He said that this was a matter of principle. He claims that this is what Terri wanted, despite not writing it down in a living will.
SANCHEZ: Carol Lin, following the story there from outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo is. What an interesting question, if she is indeed called before the commission to testify, and I guess then the entire nation will be able to judge for themselves. We are following this story and many others. We're taking a break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: A week ago today the courthouse shooting rampage occurred in Atlanta, Georgia. Police blame Brian Nichols for four deaths in the 26 hours that he was on the run from the law.
Today, Atlanta's mayor and police chief, they laid out the timeline for events from last friday, and it starts from the time that Nichols allegedly overpowered a female deputy in a holding area as he waited for his rape trial.
One of the odder parts of the story: The car police say that Nichols hijacked in a parking garage, he allegedly drove it down one floor, parked it and then walked on foot -- left on foot, I should say. Police didn't realize it until many hours later.
Let's do this: Let's bring in our law enforcement analyst, Mike Brooks, now to talk about this. And if we can, let's put this up on the screen, and you and I will look at it. This is what they revealed to us today. Are you ready?
9:05, CITIZEN: "Officer down." 9:06, Atlanta Police Department arrived at the scene. 9:11, Atlanta Fire Department arrives at the scene.. 9:30, Atlanta police find the judge and a court reporter shot.
Not until 9:45 do Atlanta police take control of this scene. To you.
MIKE BROOKS, LEGAL ANALYST: And that's almost an hour after the initial shooting, the initial -- the initial assault occurred in the courtroom. That's over an hour. And then the thing that, you know, people sit back and Monday morning quarterback, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Of course. There was a lot going on.
BROOKS: There was a lot going on. Having been a cop for 26 years, I can tell you, you know, we had manhunts in D.C. all the time. Chief Pennington, Alan Drayer, the assistant chief, they're both from D.C. They were with the Metropolitan Police Department before they came down to Atlanta. I can tell you, if that were the case, especially in a parking garage, that car -- as soon as you have a victim there in the parking garage, that is a crime scene. The whole parking garage is a crime scene.
SANCHEZ: How important is its for these agencies to communicate with each other? And did they do it effectively, because I know they had a system for Fulton County to talk to the Atlanta Police Department, but did they actually go through with it?
BROOKS: No, they didn't. It sounds -- in talking to officials on both sides, no, they didn't. One thing they have is an incident command system. It wasn't done very well at this particular juncture on this particular case. And, you know, the information, the flow of intelligence -- they had information from the victim whose car was hijacked. That Honda Accord that everybody was looking for almost 12 hours, they had information from him that Nichols asked him where Buckhead was. How do you get up to Lennox Mall, that area.
SANCHEZ: That information was never passed off to the people who were actually doing the manhunt.
BROOKS: Never relayed. Never relayed. And he came up, he had no shirt on. That was given too. Now, he didn't have a shirt on. Where is the shirt he had? You know, that shirt he had on could have blood evidence, could have anything else.
The commander should have blocked off that parking garage, done a level-to-level search, car-to-car search, brought in a S.W.A.T. team. You had Fulton County. You had Atlanta. You had FBI on the scene by that time.
SANCHEZ: But let me ask you before we run out of time, even before we got to that point, inside the courthouse itself, why did it take so long from them to know that this man left the cell and confronted and accosted an officer?
BROOKS: There were cameras inside the room where the deputy was -- where she was overtaken. Nobody was watching the cameras. It was just --
SANCHEZ: But why would you have cameras set up and have no one monitor them, Mike?
BROOKS: That's a good question. That's a good question.
SANCHEZ: That is a good question.
BROOKS: And I tell you, they're going back over -- they're going back over everything that they've done. There are other departments across the country that are re-looking -- that are looking at their procedures to make sure that doesn't happen in their department.
SANCHEZ: Maybe in the end, they'll learn from it and improve.
BROOKS: I sure hope so.
SANCHEZ: Certainly something positive can come out. Mike Brooks, thanks so much for helping us out with this.
BROOKS: Thanks, Rick.
SANCHEZ: In fact, talking of this story -- talking about this story a little bit, we're going to leave you now with some pictures having to do with one of the deputies who lost his life when he was trying to chase Mr. Nichols outside the courtroom on that day. This is Hoyt Teasley. His funeral going on as we speak. We leave you in fact with these pictures as we say adieu.
Wolf Blitzer, coming up next. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
