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CNN Live Today
Terri Schiavo Dies at Age 41
Aired March 31, 2005 - 10:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Our David Mattingly on the phone from Tampa.
Well, not surprisingly as these two families interpret facts and interpret events differently, we have a different account of the final moments of Terri Schiavo. Spokespeople for the Schindler family had came out within the last moments and said that Michael Schiavo was not with her at the time of her death. Spokespeople that he's talked with from the Schiavo family, though, report that they say that Michael Schiavo was indeed with Terri Schiavo at the moment that she passed away. We've been following events outside of the Pinellas Park hospice as they unfold as well.
Let's listen in to what's happening there.
(MUSIC)
KAGAN: We're going to go back to our phones now. We've been hearing from a number of people in the moments since we receive word that Terri Schiavo passed away. And that did happen, as we understand, within the last hour. After 15 years after she collapsed in her home, suffering brain damage after a heart attack, and 14 days after the feeding tube was removed from her stomach.
On the phone right now, Deepak Chopra, a man that people look to for spiritual guidance.
Deepak Chopra, welcome.
Hello? Well, we will work on getting that phone call. Let me bring Sanjay back in here. You know, they're talking about the moment of death, what was happening in the room, who was there, who was she with, but what about physically, do we know what would happen at the moment of death?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: There's actually a really specific protocol when it comes to these things not surprisingly. Hospices, as you pointed out earlier, Daryn, probably do this better than anybody, in terms of really planning for that moment. What typically happens is you have to document and know for sure that the heart has stopped beating. Now that can be done a couple of different ways. Typically it is just done by placing stethoscope over the chest to listen for the heart, and make sure there's no heartbeat for about a minute. You have to listen for about a minute. An EKG is performed actually looking for any electrical activity of the heart. One of those two things will be done. The stethoscope, you know, a doctor can perform that, a nurse, an EMT, somebody who's in the hospice.
Usually it's one of the doctors that are on staff there, but about a minute goes by. Usually you listen to make sure there's no respirations. Pretty clear objective signs that they look for in this situation.
KAGAN: Sanjay, thank you. Back to you in just a moment.
One of the reasons I think this story has captured the imagination and the attention of people around the world here across the United States, it brings up so many questions. It brings up questions of family relations, legal questions, medical questions, but also spiritual questions as well.
We have on the phone with us right now Deepak Chopra to perhaps look at some of those spiritual questions and what perhaps might be the legacy of Terri Schiavo.
Are you with us?
DEEPAK CHOPRA, THE CHOPRA CENTER FOR WELL BEING: I'm with you.
KAGAN: What do you think will be her legacy?
CHOPRA: I think her legacy is going to be that she opened up our eyes to examining ourselves and examining the issues of life, of death, of suffering of redemption, of survival of the consciousness, that we need to look at these issues very carefully, because in America what has happened is that death has lost its sanctity, its sacredness. You know, it's defined in legal terms, it's defined in technological terms. Death usually does not occur in the home, with the family, with loved ones. And we have made it very sterile. Death is a sacred experience.
And I think she's going to have to as her legacy remind us for deep self-examination, because we need to restore respect, dignity, and sanctity and sacredness to the experience of death.
Also as we move into a new technological era of organ transplantation -- and you know, I just heard on the news is that one of the ways to define death is that the heart stops beating. Well, we do heart transplants patients that are otherwise dead and the heart is still beating. So as we move into the era of technology and organ transplantation, I think we need to re-examine the difference between a persistent vegetative state, flat EEG, neurological death, life organs, because it's inevitably that these controversies will arise again. I think many wisdom traditions always said death is loss of perception, and cognition, and feelings and emotions is the departure of the soul. And we need to re-examine what that means, departure of the soul.
KAGAN: What about, Dr. Chopra, what we have seen about what this has done to this single family, how it's ripped it apart and how there's been so much bitterness.
CHOPRA: I think, you know, we have to say that this (INAUDIBLE) Terri Schiavo was dubbed as a weapon for economic, political and even religious exploitation. That in a way, you know, there were legal situations that people were actually making money off it, and that our society has come to this, and that we have prolonged suffering for a lot of people in this whole situation.
KAGAN: Deepak Chopra joining us on the phone from the Chopra Center for Well Being.
Dr. Chopra, thank you for that.
Well, as I said, we're continuing to hear from a number of people. It's been less than an hour that we received the word, since a spokesman for the Schindler family came out and told us that Terri Schiavo, 14 days after the feeding tube was removed, and 15 years after she first collapsed at her own home, has died at the hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida.
As we've been mentioned throughout our coverage, this has ended in a bitterly split family. Up until the final minutes, the Schindler family coming out and saying that they were denied access to Terri in her final moments, making allegations that Michael Schiavo was not with his wife in the last moments as well.
We have on the phone with us right now Russ Hyden, a friend of the husband, Michael Schiavo.
Russ, Hello.
RUSS HYDEN, FRIEND OF MICHAEL SCHIAVO: Hello.
KAGAN: Have you had a chance to talk to Michael?
HYDEN: I tried to reach him right after I got the news. And his brother answered the phone; he's taking his calls for him.
KAGAN: And had he spoken with Michael?
HYDEN: He was with Michael.
KAGAN: He was with Michael at that time.
Was he able to give you any information?
HYDEN: No, he was unable to talk. The whole family is terribly upset at this eventuality, and he couldn't express anything. He was crying.
KAGAN: Understandable. A very, very sad and difficult time.
Your friend, Michael Schiavo, has chosen not to be so public in recent days. Why has he made that choice, do you think?
HYDEN: I don't think that there's anything to be gained by that, by a public appearance. He's tried to maintain privacy, his own and his wife's privacy throughout this whole affair. KAGAN: And what about plans for a funeral for Terri Schiavo? Even that seems to be a bitter dispute between the two sides of this family.
HYDEN: I have no idea what those circumstances are.
KAGAN: And your thoughts? Did you know Terri before she...
HYDEN: No, I met Michael two years after Terri had her heart attack.
KAGAN: So you've known him through a long part of this ordeal?
HYDEN: I have.
KAGAN: And what have you learned of the man in those, let's say, 12 or 13 years?
HYDEN: Well, that man and I met because my wife had been diagnosed with cancer, and he stood by my side for three years and helped me with my children, and when she eventually died, Mike was there for me constantly to make sure I was OK and that my family was OK.
KAGAN: A difficult time for your friend Michael Schiavo and the friends and family of Terri Schiavo.
Russ Hyden. Thank you for joining us on the phone.
Let's go to Ed Henry our Capitol Hill correspondent.
But I believe, Ed, are you still in Tallahassee. You've been in the state capital Florida for some days now.
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm actually now in D.C. I'm just getting a statement in from Jeb Bush. Pardon me, I just want to get it right here. Governor Jeb Bush has sent out a paper statement reacting to the death. It says, quote, "After an extraordinarily difficult and tragic journey, Terri Schiavo is at rest. Columbia and I offer our condolences to Mr. And Mrs. Schindler, Bobby Schindler, Suzanne Vitadamo and to all those who offered their prayers and support for Terri's family over these past weeks, months and years. These prayers were not in vain." That coming today from Governor Jeb Bush.
I'm also advised from the staff of Governor Bush that he will be making an on-camera statement at about 12:30. He had a previously scheduled press conference unrelated to the Schiavo matter in Tallahassee for 12:30 p.m. Eastern Time. He's going to go ahead with that, and make some comments at the top addressing the Terri Schiavo death.
As you know, Daryn, the governor has been under intense pressure. And when I was there in Tallahassee for several days, and when I interviewed him, he was talking about that pressure. It was clear that while he noted the emotional toll this was taking on both the Schiavo and Schindler families, it was clear to me that this was taking an emotional, as well as political toll, obviously, on the governor. He had a lot of fellow conservatives urging him to intervene, to have the state of Florida take custody of Terri Schiavo, take her out of the hospice and bring her to the nearby hospital so the feeding tube could be reinserted. The governor repeatedly said that he could not do that. He felt that the law did not give him that power. He wanted to get a court order giving him that power or he wanted the state senate and state house to pass state legislation giving him that power.
When all of those efforts were exhausted, the governor told me while he would love to do more, he just could not legally do more. He was very frustrated by that. But you can see now in his statement, he's trying to tell people all across the country their prayers were not in vain, but he realizes there was nothing more that he could do -- Daryn.
KAGAN: You're right. A point of great controversy among people who did want this governor to do much more. Ed, we'll be back to you.
The Bush family getting very involved in Terri Schiavo's story, whether it Governor Bush or President Bush, who flew back to Washington to sign a bill that was kicking this story and this situation back to the state courts, federal courts in Florida. We expect President Bush one hour, exactly from right now, to come out and make a statement about the Schiavo case. Of course, you'll see that live right here on CNN.
Meanwhile, Randall Terry has been one of the people who has been in very close contact with the Schindler family, has been very vocal in the fight in trying to get the feeding tube reinserted back into Terri Schiavo. He joins me now from Pinellas Park. Hello.
RANDALL TERRY, SCHINDLER FAMILY CONSULTANT: Hello, hi.
KAGAN: This is a very sad time.
TERRY: I'm here.
KAGAN: Yes. A very sad time for you, for the Schindler family, and for the Schiavo family, as well.
TERRY: Its unthinkable. And just the thought that Terri did not have her family with her at the last moments is so inconceivable. I just don't even know what to say. I just feel sick to my stomach.
KAGAN: We did hear earlier from Father Pavone that her brother and sister were able to be with her about 10 or 15 minutes before she died. And then we are hearing from people close to Michael Schiavo that he was, in fact, with her at the time she died.
TERRY: I don't think that most people would think that Michael, after leaving his common-law wife, was going to come in there and have much grief about Terri, per se. I just wish that her siblings and her parents had been able to be in the room with her when she went to be into eternity. KAGAN: It is a sad time for the Schindler family. We're going to let the Schiavo family speak for the feelings that they have at this time right now.
TERRY: OK.
KAGAN: As we go forward, this has been such a bitter time around a woman who was so loved. It's so ironic that so much love ended in such terrible feelings. What do you think, is there any kind of legacy that Terri Schiavo brings just to her family and to the country?
TERRY: Well, there's so many areas in which this is going to be discussed literally for decades. You're going to have the issues of euthanasia and the debate about what quality of life means and what do we do with people that are severely handicapped. How do we allow them to be treated? We're going to have fierce discussions about our government and how our government works. I mean, the fact that a probate judge was able to defy the will of Congress, the president, the governor, the state legislature of Florida.
There's going to be discussions about how do we heal the divisions that are in the country, as you saw Reverend Jackson here. You know, people that were on different sides of so many political issues standing together to try and bring justice and life to Terri. School children are going to be reading about this case within a few years, as the case makes it into the textbooks. There will be discussions about the media coverage, was it too much, too little, was it balanced?
The shakedown of that is going to be with us for a long, long time. And I know that, for sure, there's going to be a lot of discussion about how to rein in the judiciary. That is going be one of the key elements that comes from this, and I know that there will be others as well, such as euthanasia and how we care for the handicapped.
KAGAN: As you said, a lot of talking points still to come on that. Randall Terry, thank you. I'm going to use that as a jumping- off point to bring our legal analyst in, Jeffrey Toobin. Randall Terry bringing up a point that a lot people in this country are talking about, the judiciary on both sides, Jeff. Some people saying very few people have gotten the kind of access to the courts that Terri Schiavo has had. On the other side, people saying that these are judges that are going against the will of the people.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, SR. CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, this is just such an extraordinary story in so many respects. You know, when Congress mobilized two weeks ago, virtually unanimously, to basically give the Schindlers another chance in the court, there was almost no dissent. However, virtually immediately after that law was passed, public reaction seemed to turn very much against giving this case back to the courts and back to the politicians.
So I don't really think it is safe to conclude that this has any clear legacy one way or another. I think politicians and the judiciary are very uncertain what to make of it. And we're going to be trying to figure that out for quite some time.
KAGAN: How do you think -- another place we're looking at changes that might come, the question of guardianship. Michael Schiavo, Terri Schiavo's husband and yet clearly had moved on with his life. One of the big arguments was he should have just turned over his wife to her blood relatives.
TOOBIN: Well, you know, that is so much the heart of the sadness in this case. And as I mentioned earlier, I think one of the very few positives to come out of this case is that thousands if not millions of Americans are taking a look at their own wills and living wills and care situations, so that their families have clear instructions if something terrible happens to them.
But, you know, I think it is, in the absence of clear instructions, it's inevitable that the courts going to get involved in these situations, unless there is -- people do leave clear instructions, there is no alternative but to leave these matters in the courts, which will leave one side terribly disappointed, as the Schindlers were here. I don't think there's any possibility of creating a solution to this problem where the courts somehow won't be involved. It's just inevitable.
KAGAN: With that in mind, why, Jeffrey, do you think that the Supreme Court turned it down so many times?
TOOBIN: Because the Supreme Court only decides about 80 cases a year. And for the most part, those are cases that have implications for a lot of different situations. And here you have a case where the facts are so complicated and really unique to her situation, particularly in the past two weeks, when, you know, you have you a single law passed solely for her benefit.
The Supreme Court does not want to get involved in analyzing a law that has only one beneficiary. They generally deal only in controversies, as I say, that have broad applications. So it is not at all surprising that they stayed away from this.
KAGAN: All right, Jeffrey Toobin, our legal analyst. We'll be back to you.
Father Frank Pavone has been counseling the Schindler family. He came out and spoke a few minutes ago and he was explaining how he, along with Terri's brother and sister, were with her about 10 or 15 minutes before she passed away. Father Pavone, thank you for joining us.
FATHER FRANK PAVONE, NAT'L DIRECTOR OF PRIESTS FOR LIFE: You're welcome.
KAGAN: Can you share with our viewers across the U.S. and around the world what those final moments that you were able to be with the Shindlers and with Terri Schiavo, what they were like and what happened?
PAVONE: They were moments of intense prayer. Bobby was on one side of the bed, I was on the other, and Suzanne was next to me. We were praying the prayers of the church. We were praying the rosary. We assured Terri of the love and care and concern of people around the world, so many of you who have been praying and wondering what you could do and writing in to the family. She was assured of that right up until the last moment.
We laid hands on her, we held her hand. It was just a beautiful time of prayer. She was in obvious distress. I would not describe this, by any means, as a peaceful death. This was a starvation, a dehydration, very sad. But thank God, her siblings were closely united with her up until those last moments.
KAGAN: And during those moments, was it clear that the end was near, that this was going to be the final good-bye for her brother and her sister?
PAVONE: It was very clear. We had been in there late last night up until past midnight, and then again early this morning, and we saw -- we could see the deterioration in her condition, even in the span of those hours. So we knew it was very close.
In fact, we were asked to leave just about ten minutes before she died, not because they knew she was about to die, but because they had to do another assessment of her condition and because Michael Schiavo was going to come in and visit. And the family at that point very much wanted to make it clear that they wanted to stay as long as they possibly could.
KAGAN: And it's been like that in these final days, to keep it completely separated, so either Michael Schiavo or the Schindler family was in there?
PAVONE: Yes. And the Schindler family made it clear that they were willing to be in there with Michael at those last moments. They were willing to do that. Michael did not want that. But as I say, it was right up until ten minutes before she died. And we -- and after she died, I said the prayers of the church at the doorway to her room. At that point only the immediate family could go in. And I stood there and offered the prayers and blessings of the church for Terri.
KAGAN: One of the many, many tragedies and difficult parts of this story is to watch this family that has been split in two. It is their same love, their mutual love for the same woman, that has done this. As a priest, what kind of counsel do you give to the Schindler family, who you've gotten close to, to get through that part of this difficult time?
PAVONE: I have found them really very, very much already on the right path in the sense that they trust God, they put their faith in the Lord in times like this. You know, it's not a matter of denying reality. You face reality, but you face the fullness of reality, which is that death is not the last word. Christ has risen. We're in the Easter season. We're at the height of the Easter season right now in the Christian world, and therefore we know that death does not have the last word. They know that, too. It's okay to feel sad that we lose a loved one, that we don't see them again. It would be wrong to think that we'll never see them again. And the Schindlers have that strong faith and their love for one another.
And I think one more thing: You know, they have a piece of conscience today. They know over these 15 years of dealing with Terri's disability, they have done everything they possibly could, not only legally but humanly speaking. And that gives them a peace to be able to deal with the sadness of today. They have no guilt. They have no feeling that, oh, we could have done more but we didn't. They know they did everything they could in the midst of what is not just a death, but a killing. And that's what makes this a double tragedy.
KAGAN: We've heard from so many people in the last hour. I wasn't sure if it was you who said that there will be two separate memorial services? Do you know of any funeral plans or memorial service plans?
PAVONE: No, that was not me. No. I'm going to be talking with the family over the next few hours, and I'm sure we'll be planning more details and announcing them as soon as they're decided.
KAGAN: All right. Well, we'll look forward to hearing those. I know there's a lot of people not just across the U.S. but around the world who are interested in those final plans for Terri Schiavo.
Father, thank you for your time.
PAVONE: Thank you.
KAGAN: One avenue that the Schindler family went to in the final days trying to get some kind of intervention for their daughter, for Terri Schiavo, was the Florida legislature, a body that in the end decided not to act, that did not have the votes to make a difference. Just a few minutes ago, though, on the floor of the house, of the Florida House, a moment of silence. Let's listen in to that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FLORIDA STATE REP. DENNIS BAXLEY (R): I know and I'm thankful, we are thankful that God has mercy on the souls of the innocent. And I pray that He'll forgive the rest of us. Our hearts are broken.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please bow your heads. (MOMENT OF SILENCE.) Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: And that was just a few minutes ago on the floor of the state House in Florida.
Once again, for our viewers that are with us across the U.S. and all around the world, we continue our rolling coverage of the death of Terri Schiavo. It was just about -- almost exactly an hour ago that a spokesperson for the Schindler family came out and shared the news that Terri Schiavo, 15 years after she collapsed in her own home and suffering brain damage, 14 days after having a feeding tube removed, and many years of legal fights and a bitterly divided family, Terri Schiavo has passed away.
Our medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta has been a big part of our coverage here over recent days. There's been so much attention on the Schiavo family. It is a terrible thing that has happened with Terri Schiavo and to this family. It's also a situation that families not just across the country, but around the world face every single day.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: In the United States alone, between 10,000 and 25,000 people in a persistent vegetative state. You know, families do have to make these decisions every day, which -- you know, this is obviously a very sad story, but a lot of people watching have gone through experiences like this themselves, may be going through an experience like this right now. So it's worth pointing that out as well. These are not easy decisions for doctors, for patients' families, for the legal system now, as we found out as well. But a persistent vegetative state is not a clear- cut diagnosis. I think if anything else medically that's come out of that, has.
KAGAN: All this time later, I think a lot of people are saying, well, what is it?
GUPTA: Yeah. So what exactly -- I mean, what -- let me tell you the definition. It's called "wakeful unawareness." Now, just to hear that term, wakeful unawareness, most people including doctors, sort of scratch their heads and say, what does that mean? It is hard even for doctors to get their arms around this concept of wakeful unawareness. But that's exactly what it is. People may open their eyes. They may close their eyes. They may be awake. They may be asleep. They may be reacting to touch, to sounds. They may react with certain noises, although not communicative noises. All these things to a lay person and to a lot of doctors as well means a person's awake; they're there; they're conscious; they're responding. But it doesn't as well, in the sense that these are all reflexes.
Again, I don't know. I've never examined Terri Schiavo. I've looked at these tapes, which you can't make a conclusion from. And I can't tell you as a neurosurgeon whether or not she's in a persistent vegetative state. I didn't have the access to Terri. But even for those doctors who did, they have a hard time with this.
KAGAN: And came away with different interpretations.
GUPTA: Different interpretations and different likelihoods of prognosis. I mean, one doctor said she has a brain death exam. Another said she could be rehabilitated to the point where she would just have some arm weakness. Two neurologists; two wildly different conclusions.
KAGAN: All right. Back to you, Dr. Gupta, in just a moment.
First though, our Randi Kaye is outside the office of George Felos. He is the attorney for Michael Schiavo. Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Daryn, I can tell you, we still have had no sign of George Felos here this morning. We haven't seen him since yesterday morning, about 9:30 in the morning hen he headed over to the hospice to see Terri Schiavo and his client, Michael Schiavo. He has been going there pretty consistently over the last few days. He has been visiting with Terri. The first time he talked with us about her condition, which was on Saturday and Sunday over the weekend, he told us that her breathing seemed to be fine. She looked peaceful. She looked at rest and very comfortable. And then just a couple of days after that, he spent about an hour and 20 minutes with her in her hospice room, and he told us her condition looked the same, but here skin did not have the same radiance, and her eyes were a bit more sunken, and her breathing was a bit more rapid. He had suggested that she could go into cardiac arrest at any moment.
When asked about his client, he said that Michael Schiavo had been at the hospice with her since March 14th, the day her feeding tube had been removed. He described this as a heartbreaking experience for Michael Schiavo. And he would not say whether or not he had been the room with her throughout the time at the hospice, but he did say that he was spending every night at the hospice.
Daryn.
KAGAN: And do we expect at any time to hear from Michael Schiavo?
KAYE: We have not had any word that we will hear from Michael Schiavo. We've asked George Felos that many times over the last week or so. He has not determined whether or not his client will be making a statement. We do, however, expect George Felos to speak her according to his assistant, at some point today. It might not be until this afternoon, and we're not sure exactly what we can expect from him, but we do expect him to hold a press conference here today.
KAGAN: One thing that George Felos has spoken about in recent days is what happens after Terri Schiavo dies. I think agreement on both sides that there will be an autopsy. But after that, the division between the Schiavo and Schindler families continues with completely different wishes of what they plan to do for funeral arrangements.
KAYE: Absolutely, Daryn. The Schindlers, according to the Roman Catholic beliefs, they wanted their daughter buried here in Florida. They did not want her cremated. They had repeatedly asked for that. Judge Greer denied that -- Judge George Greer, that is, here at the 6th Judicial Circuit Court. He denied that request. And he did agree with Michael Schiavo's request, which is to have his wife cremated and have her remains buried and her ashes buried at the family plot in Pennsylvania, the Schiavo family plot.
So there is still much disagreement about that, and still no word on exactly what will happen now. We do know that there will be an autopsy done, an autopsy performed on Terri Schiavo. Michael Schiavo would like to know how much damage was done to her brain during that stroke 15 years ago, and he has agreed to allow that autopsy to be done and then have his wife cremated. KAGAN: Father Frank Pavone was with us before, just a few minutes ago. He said he was with Terri Schiavo and her brother and her sister about 10 or 15 minutes before she died. They left the room because they said that they were told it was time for an assessment, a medical assessment, not realizing how close she was to death. But also made it clear that even if police had to be present, that they wanted -- the Schindler family wanted to be in the room with Terri Schiavo when she died. They say Michael Schiavo denied that request. Any response from George Felos' office?
KAYE: Not yet. But I can tell you that even since over the weekend, we've be talking with George Felos about what will happen in the final hours and the final minutes, and Mr. Felos had said, we will have a pretty good idea of when the time is here and when the time will come. And he said that they were working on an agreement. He wouldn't say if there was anybody was involved trying to get the two sides together, such as a mediator. But they were working on an agreement, according to George Felos, on how the two sides would be able to be together at some point in Terri's final minutes to say good-bye.
Apparently that did not happen. Whether or not that's because an agreement wasn't reached, we certainly don't know yet, but apparently, according to what we've heard this morning, the Schindler family was not in that room at the time. So it's still yet to be determined whether or not an agreement was reached. But that is something that they were trying to do.
KAGAN: Randi Kaye in Dunedin, Florida. Randi, thank you. We'll be back to you. And as you said, George Felos, Michael Schiavo's attorney, expected to speak later today. You'll see that live right here on CNN.
As we get close to the top of the hour, for those of you just joining us, let's go back to our breaking and developing news. Terri Schiavo has died. She was 41 years old. The death comes 15 years after she collapsed in her own home, suffered brain damage, and many, many years of legal fights. Also, it comes 14 days after her husband won a long legal fight to have her feeding tube removed. According to wire reports, Terri Schiavo died at 9:05 a.m. Eastern, so we're coming up on about two hours ago.
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Aired March 31, 2005 - 10:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Our David Mattingly on the phone from Tampa.
Well, not surprisingly as these two families interpret facts and interpret events differently, we have a different account of the final moments of Terri Schiavo. Spokespeople for the Schindler family had came out within the last moments and said that Michael Schiavo was not with her at the time of her death. Spokespeople that he's talked with from the Schiavo family, though, report that they say that Michael Schiavo was indeed with Terri Schiavo at the moment that she passed away. We've been following events outside of the Pinellas Park hospice as they unfold as well.
Let's listen in to what's happening there.
(MUSIC)
KAGAN: We're going to go back to our phones now. We've been hearing from a number of people in the moments since we receive word that Terri Schiavo passed away. And that did happen, as we understand, within the last hour. After 15 years after she collapsed in her home, suffering brain damage after a heart attack, and 14 days after the feeding tube was removed from her stomach.
On the phone right now, Deepak Chopra, a man that people look to for spiritual guidance.
Deepak Chopra, welcome.
Hello? Well, we will work on getting that phone call. Let me bring Sanjay back in here. You know, they're talking about the moment of death, what was happening in the room, who was there, who was she with, but what about physically, do we know what would happen at the moment of death?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: There's actually a really specific protocol when it comes to these things not surprisingly. Hospices, as you pointed out earlier, Daryn, probably do this better than anybody, in terms of really planning for that moment. What typically happens is you have to document and know for sure that the heart has stopped beating. Now that can be done a couple of different ways. Typically it is just done by placing stethoscope over the chest to listen for the heart, and make sure there's no heartbeat for about a minute. You have to listen for about a minute. An EKG is performed actually looking for any electrical activity of the heart. One of those two things will be done. The stethoscope, you know, a doctor can perform that, a nurse, an EMT, somebody who's in the hospice.
Usually it's one of the doctors that are on staff there, but about a minute goes by. Usually you listen to make sure there's no respirations. Pretty clear objective signs that they look for in this situation.
KAGAN: Sanjay, thank you. Back to you in just a moment.
One of the reasons I think this story has captured the imagination and the attention of people around the world here across the United States, it brings up so many questions. It brings up questions of family relations, legal questions, medical questions, but also spiritual questions as well.
We have on the phone with us right now Deepak Chopra to perhaps look at some of those spiritual questions and what perhaps might be the legacy of Terri Schiavo.
Are you with us?
DEEPAK CHOPRA, THE CHOPRA CENTER FOR WELL BEING: I'm with you.
KAGAN: What do you think will be her legacy?
CHOPRA: I think her legacy is going to be that she opened up our eyes to examining ourselves and examining the issues of life, of death, of suffering of redemption, of survival of the consciousness, that we need to look at these issues very carefully, because in America what has happened is that death has lost its sanctity, its sacredness. You know, it's defined in legal terms, it's defined in technological terms. Death usually does not occur in the home, with the family, with loved ones. And we have made it very sterile. Death is a sacred experience.
And I think she's going to have to as her legacy remind us for deep self-examination, because we need to restore respect, dignity, and sanctity and sacredness to the experience of death.
Also as we move into a new technological era of organ transplantation -- and you know, I just heard on the news is that one of the ways to define death is that the heart stops beating. Well, we do heart transplants patients that are otherwise dead and the heart is still beating. So as we move into the era of technology and organ transplantation, I think we need to re-examine the difference between a persistent vegetative state, flat EEG, neurological death, life organs, because it's inevitably that these controversies will arise again. I think many wisdom traditions always said death is loss of perception, and cognition, and feelings and emotions is the departure of the soul. And we need to re-examine what that means, departure of the soul.
KAGAN: What about, Dr. Chopra, what we have seen about what this has done to this single family, how it's ripped it apart and how there's been so much bitterness.
CHOPRA: I think, you know, we have to say that this (INAUDIBLE) Terri Schiavo was dubbed as a weapon for economic, political and even religious exploitation. That in a way, you know, there were legal situations that people were actually making money off it, and that our society has come to this, and that we have prolonged suffering for a lot of people in this whole situation.
KAGAN: Deepak Chopra joining us on the phone from the Chopra Center for Well Being.
Dr. Chopra, thank you for that.
Well, as I said, we're continuing to hear from a number of people. It's been less than an hour that we received the word, since a spokesman for the Schindler family came out and told us that Terri Schiavo, 14 days after the feeding tube was removed, and 15 years after she first collapsed at her own home, has died at the hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida.
As we've been mentioned throughout our coverage, this has ended in a bitterly split family. Up until the final minutes, the Schindler family coming out and saying that they were denied access to Terri in her final moments, making allegations that Michael Schiavo was not with his wife in the last moments as well.
We have on the phone with us right now Russ Hyden, a friend of the husband, Michael Schiavo.
Russ, Hello.
RUSS HYDEN, FRIEND OF MICHAEL SCHIAVO: Hello.
KAGAN: Have you had a chance to talk to Michael?
HYDEN: I tried to reach him right after I got the news. And his brother answered the phone; he's taking his calls for him.
KAGAN: And had he spoken with Michael?
HYDEN: He was with Michael.
KAGAN: He was with Michael at that time.
Was he able to give you any information?
HYDEN: No, he was unable to talk. The whole family is terribly upset at this eventuality, and he couldn't express anything. He was crying.
KAGAN: Understandable. A very, very sad and difficult time.
Your friend, Michael Schiavo, has chosen not to be so public in recent days. Why has he made that choice, do you think?
HYDEN: I don't think that there's anything to be gained by that, by a public appearance. He's tried to maintain privacy, his own and his wife's privacy throughout this whole affair. KAGAN: And what about plans for a funeral for Terri Schiavo? Even that seems to be a bitter dispute between the two sides of this family.
HYDEN: I have no idea what those circumstances are.
KAGAN: And your thoughts? Did you know Terri before she...
HYDEN: No, I met Michael two years after Terri had her heart attack.
KAGAN: So you've known him through a long part of this ordeal?
HYDEN: I have.
KAGAN: And what have you learned of the man in those, let's say, 12 or 13 years?
HYDEN: Well, that man and I met because my wife had been diagnosed with cancer, and he stood by my side for three years and helped me with my children, and when she eventually died, Mike was there for me constantly to make sure I was OK and that my family was OK.
KAGAN: A difficult time for your friend Michael Schiavo and the friends and family of Terri Schiavo.
Russ Hyden. Thank you for joining us on the phone.
Let's go to Ed Henry our Capitol Hill correspondent.
But I believe, Ed, are you still in Tallahassee. You've been in the state capital Florida for some days now.
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm actually now in D.C. I'm just getting a statement in from Jeb Bush. Pardon me, I just want to get it right here. Governor Jeb Bush has sent out a paper statement reacting to the death. It says, quote, "After an extraordinarily difficult and tragic journey, Terri Schiavo is at rest. Columbia and I offer our condolences to Mr. And Mrs. Schindler, Bobby Schindler, Suzanne Vitadamo and to all those who offered their prayers and support for Terri's family over these past weeks, months and years. These prayers were not in vain." That coming today from Governor Jeb Bush.
I'm also advised from the staff of Governor Bush that he will be making an on-camera statement at about 12:30. He had a previously scheduled press conference unrelated to the Schiavo matter in Tallahassee for 12:30 p.m. Eastern Time. He's going to go ahead with that, and make some comments at the top addressing the Terri Schiavo death.
As you know, Daryn, the governor has been under intense pressure. And when I was there in Tallahassee for several days, and when I interviewed him, he was talking about that pressure. It was clear that while he noted the emotional toll this was taking on both the Schiavo and Schindler families, it was clear to me that this was taking an emotional, as well as political toll, obviously, on the governor. He had a lot of fellow conservatives urging him to intervene, to have the state of Florida take custody of Terri Schiavo, take her out of the hospice and bring her to the nearby hospital so the feeding tube could be reinserted. The governor repeatedly said that he could not do that. He felt that the law did not give him that power. He wanted to get a court order giving him that power or he wanted the state senate and state house to pass state legislation giving him that power.
When all of those efforts were exhausted, the governor told me while he would love to do more, he just could not legally do more. He was very frustrated by that. But you can see now in his statement, he's trying to tell people all across the country their prayers were not in vain, but he realizes there was nothing more that he could do -- Daryn.
KAGAN: You're right. A point of great controversy among people who did want this governor to do much more. Ed, we'll be back to you.
The Bush family getting very involved in Terri Schiavo's story, whether it Governor Bush or President Bush, who flew back to Washington to sign a bill that was kicking this story and this situation back to the state courts, federal courts in Florida. We expect President Bush one hour, exactly from right now, to come out and make a statement about the Schiavo case. Of course, you'll see that live right here on CNN.
Meanwhile, Randall Terry has been one of the people who has been in very close contact with the Schindler family, has been very vocal in the fight in trying to get the feeding tube reinserted back into Terri Schiavo. He joins me now from Pinellas Park. Hello.
RANDALL TERRY, SCHINDLER FAMILY CONSULTANT: Hello, hi.
KAGAN: This is a very sad time.
TERRY: I'm here.
KAGAN: Yes. A very sad time for you, for the Schindler family, and for the Schiavo family, as well.
TERRY: Its unthinkable. And just the thought that Terri did not have her family with her at the last moments is so inconceivable. I just don't even know what to say. I just feel sick to my stomach.
KAGAN: We did hear earlier from Father Pavone that her brother and sister were able to be with her about 10 or 15 minutes before she died. And then we are hearing from people close to Michael Schiavo that he was, in fact, with her at the time she died.
TERRY: I don't think that most people would think that Michael, after leaving his common-law wife, was going to come in there and have much grief about Terri, per se. I just wish that her siblings and her parents had been able to be in the room with her when she went to be into eternity. KAGAN: It is a sad time for the Schindler family. We're going to let the Schiavo family speak for the feelings that they have at this time right now.
TERRY: OK.
KAGAN: As we go forward, this has been such a bitter time around a woman who was so loved. It's so ironic that so much love ended in such terrible feelings. What do you think, is there any kind of legacy that Terri Schiavo brings just to her family and to the country?
TERRY: Well, there's so many areas in which this is going to be discussed literally for decades. You're going to have the issues of euthanasia and the debate about what quality of life means and what do we do with people that are severely handicapped. How do we allow them to be treated? We're going to have fierce discussions about our government and how our government works. I mean, the fact that a probate judge was able to defy the will of Congress, the president, the governor, the state legislature of Florida.
There's going to be discussions about how do we heal the divisions that are in the country, as you saw Reverend Jackson here. You know, people that were on different sides of so many political issues standing together to try and bring justice and life to Terri. School children are going to be reading about this case within a few years, as the case makes it into the textbooks. There will be discussions about the media coverage, was it too much, too little, was it balanced?
The shakedown of that is going to be with us for a long, long time. And I know that, for sure, there's going to be a lot of discussion about how to rein in the judiciary. That is going be one of the key elements that comes from this, and I know that there will be others as well, such as euthanasia and how we care for the handicapped.
KAGAN: As you said, a lot of talking points still to come on that. Randall Terry, thank you. I'm going to use that as a jumping- off point to bring our legal analyst in, Jeffrey Toobin. Randall Terry bringing up a point that a lot people in this country are talking about, the judiciary on both sides, Jeff. Some people saying very few people have gotten the kind of access to the courts that Terri Schiavo has had. On the other side, people saying that these are judges that are going against the will of the people.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, SR. CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, this is just such an extraordinary story in so many respects. You know, when Congress mobilized two weeks ago, virtually unanimously, to basically give the Schindlers another chance in the court, there was almost no dissent. However, virtually immediately after that law was passed, public reaction seemed to turn very much against giving this case back to the courts and back to the politicians.
So I don't really think it is safe to conclude that this has any clear legacy one way or another. I think politicians and the judiciary are very uncertain what to make of it. And we're going to be trying to figure that out for quite some time.
KAGAN: How do you think -- another place we're looking at changes that might come, the question of guardianship. Michael Schiavo, Terri Schiavo's husband and yet clearly had moved on with his life. One of the big arguments was he should have just turned over his wife to her blood relatives.
TOOBIN: Well, you know, that is so much the heart of the sadness in this case. And as I mentioned earlier, I think one of the very few positives to come out of this case is that thousands if not millions of Americans are taking a look at their own wills and living wills and care situations, so that their families have clear instructions if something terrible happens to them.
But, you know, I think it is, in the absence of clear instructions, it's inevitable that the courts going to get involved in these situations, unless there is -- people do leave clear instructions, there is no alternative but to leave these matters in the courts, which will leave one side terribly disappointed, as the Schindlers were here. I don't think there's any possibility of creating a solution to this problem where the courts somehow won't be involved. It's just inevitable.
KAGAN: With that in mind, why, Jeffrey, do you think that the Supreme Court turned it down so many times?
TOOBIN: Because the Supreme Court only decides about 80 cases a year. And for the most part, those are cases that have implications for a lot of different situations. And here you have a case where the facts are so complicated and really unique to her situation, particularly in the past two weeks, when, you know, you have you a single law passed solely for her benefit.
The Supreme Court does not want to get involved in analyzing a law that has only one beneficiary. They generally deal only in controversies, as I say, that have broad applications. So it is not at all surprising that they stayed away from this.
KAGAN: All right, Jeffrey Toobin, our legal analyst. We'll be back to you.
Father Frank Pavone has been counseling the Schindler family. He came out and spoke a few minutes ago and he was explaining how he, along with Terri's brother and sister, were with her about 10 or 15 minutes before she passed away. Father Pavone, thank you for joining us.
FATHER FRANK PAVONE, NAT'L DIRECTOR OF PRIESTS FOR LIFE: You're welcome.
KAGAN: Can you share with our viewers across the U.S. and around the world what those final moments that you were able to be with the Shindlers and with Terri Schiavo, what they were like and what happened?
PAVONE: They were moments of intense prayer. Bobby was on one side of the bed, I was on the other, and Suzanne was next to me. We were praying the prayers of the church. We were praying the rosary. We assured Terri of the love and care and concern of people around the world, so many of you who have been praying and wondering what you could do and writing in to the family. She was assured of that right up until the last moment.
We laid hands on her, we held her hand. It was just a beautiful time of prayer. She was in obvious distress. I would not describe this, by any means, as a peaceful death. This was a starvation, a dehydration, very sad. But thank God, her siblings were closely united with her up until those last moments.
KAGAN: And during those moments, was it clear that the end was near, that this was going to be the final good-bye for her brother and her sister?
PAVONE: It was very clear. We had been in there late last night up until past midnight, and then again early this morning, and we saw -- we could see the deterioration in her condition, even in the span of those hours. So we knew it was very close.
In fact, we were asked to leave just about ten minutes before she died, not because they knew she was about to die, but because they had to do another assessment of her condition and because Michael Schiavo was going to come in and visit. And the family at that point very much wanted to make it clear that they wanted to stay as long as they possibly could.
KAGAN: And it's been like that in these final days, to keep it completely separated, so either Michael Schiavo or the Schindler family was in there?
PAVONE: Yes. And the Schindler family made it clear that they were willing to be in there with Michael at those last moments. They were willing to do that. Michael did not want that. But as I say, it was right up until ten minutes before she died. And we -- and after she died, I said the prayers of the church at the doorway to her room. At that point only the immediate family could go in. And I stood there and offered the prayers and blessings of the church for Terri.
KAGAN: One of the many, many tragedies and difficult parts of this story is to watch this family that has been split in two. It is their same love, their mutual love for the same woman, that has done this. As a priest, what kind of counsel do you give to the Schindler family, who you've gotten close to, to get through that part of this difficult time?
PAVONE: I have found them really very, very much already on the right path in the sense that they trust God, they put their faith in the Lord in times like this. You know, it's not a matter of denying reality. You face reality, but you face the fullness of reality, which is that death is not the last word. Christ has risen. We're in the Easter season. We're at the height of the Easter season right now in the Christian world, and therefore we know that death does not have the last word. They know that, too. It's okay to feel sad that we lose a loved one, that we don't see them again. It would be wrong to think that we'll never see them again. And the Schindlers have that strong faith and their love for one another.
And I think one more thing: You know, they have a piece of conscience today. They know over these 15 years of dealing with Terri's disability, they have done everything they possibly could, not only legally but humanly speaking. And that gives them a peace to be able to deal with the sadness of today. They have no guilt. They have no feeling that, oh, we could have done more but we didn't. They know they did everything they could in the midst of what is not just a death, but a killing. And that's what makes this a double tragedy.
KAGAN: We've heard from so many people in the last hour. I wasn't sure if it was you who said that there will be two separate memorial services? Do you know of any funeral plans or memorial service plans?
PAVONE: No, that was not me. No. I'm going to be talking with the family over the next few hours, and I'm sure we'll be planning more details and announcing them as soon as they're decided.
KAGAN: All right. Well, we'll look forward to hearing those. I know there's a lot of people not just across the U.S. but around the world who are interested in those final plans for Terri Schiavo.
Father, thank you for your time.
PAVONE: Thank you.
KAGAN: One avenue that the Schindler family went to in the final days trying to get some kind of intervention for their daughter, for Terri Schiavo, was the Florida legislature, a body that in the end decided not to act, that did not have the votes to make a difference. Just a few minutes ago, though, on the floor of the house, of the Florida House, a moment of silence. Let's listen in to that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FLORIDA STATE REP. DENNIS BAXLEY (R): I know and I'm thankful, we are thankful that God has mercy on the souls of the innocent. And I pray that He'll forgive the rest of us. Our hearts are broken.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please bow your heads. (MOMENT OF SILENCE.) Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: And that was just a few minutes ago on the floor of the state House in Florida.
Once again, for our viewers that are with us across the U.S. and all around the world, we continue our rolling coverage of the death of Terri Schiavo. It was just about -- almost exactly an hour ago that a spokesperson for the Schindler family came out and shared the news that Terri Schiavo, 15 years after she collapsed in her own home and suffering brain damage, 14 days after having a feeding tube removed, and many years of legal fights and a bitterly divided family, Terri Schiavo has passed away.
Our medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta has been a big part of our coverage here over recent days. There's been so much attention on the Schiavo family. It is a terrible thing that has happened with Terri Schiavo and to this family. It's also a situation that families not just across the country, but around the world face every single day.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: In the United States alone, between 10,000 and 25,000 people in a persistent vegetative state. You know, families do have to make these decisions every day, which -- you know, this is obviously a very sad story, but a lot of people watching have gone through experiences like this themselves, may be going through an experience like this right now. So it's worth pointing that out as well. These are not easy decisions for doctors, for patients' families, for the legal system now, as we found out as well. But a persistent vegetative state is not a clear- cut diagnosis. I think if anything else medically that's come out of that, has.
KAGAN: All this time later, I think a lot of people are saying, well, what is it?
GUPTA: Yeah. So what exactly -- I mean, what -- let me tell you the definition. It's called "wakeful unawareness." Now, just to hear that term, wakeful unawareness, most people including doctors, sort of scratch their heads and say, what does that mean? It is hard even for doctors to get their arms around this concept of wakeful unawareness. But that's exactly what it is. People may open their eyes. They may close their eyes. They may be awake. They may be asleep. They may be reacting to touch, to sounds. They may react with certain noises, although not communicative noises. All these things to a lay person and to a lot of doctors as well means a person's awake; they're there; they're conscious; they're responding. But it doesn't as well, in the sense that these are all reflexes.
Again, I don't know. I've never examined Terri Schiavo. I've looked at these tapes, which you can't make a conclusion from. And I can't tell you as a neurosurgeon whether or not she's in a persistent vegetative state. I didn't have the access to Terri. But even for those doctors who did, they have a hard time with this.
KAGAN: And came away with different interpretations.
GUPTA: Different interpretations and different likelihoods of prognosis. I mean, one doctor said she has a brain death exam. Another said she could be rehabilitated to the point where she would just have some arm weakness. Two neurologists; two wildly different conclusions.
KAGAN: All right. Back to you, Dr. Gupta, in just a moment.
First though, our Randi Kaye is outside the office of George Felos. He is the attorney for Michael Schiavo. Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Daryn, I can tell you, we still have had no sign of George Felos here this morning. We haven't seen him since yesterday morning, about 9:30 in the morning hen he headed over to the hospice to see Terri Schiavo and his client, Michael Schiavo. He has been going there pretty consistently over the last few days. He has been visiting with Terri. The first time he talked with us about her condition, which was on Saturday and Sunday over the weekend, he told us that her breathing seemed to be fine. She looked peaceful. She looked at rest and very comfortable. And then just a couple of days after that, he spent about an hour and 20 minutes with her in her hospice room, and he told us her condition looked the same, but here skin did not have the same radiance, and her eyes were a bit more sunken, and her breathing was a bit more rapid. He had suggested that she could go into cardiac arrest at any moment.
When asked about his client, he said that Michael Schiavo had been at the hospice with her since March 14th, the day her feeding tube had been removed. He described this as a heartbreaking experience for Michael Schiavo. And he would not say whether or not he had been the room with her throughout the time at the hospice, but he did say that he was spending every night at the hospice.
Daryn.
KAGAN: And do we expect at any time to hear from Michael Schiavo?
KAYE: We have not had any word that we will hear from Michael Schiavo. We've asked George Felos that many times over the last week or so. He has not determined whether or not his client will be making a statement. We do, however, expect George Felos to speak her according to his assistant, at some point today. It might not be until this afternoon, and we're not sure exactly what we can expect from him, but we do expect him to hold a press conference here today.
KAGAN: One thing that George Felos has spoken about in recent days is what happens after Terri Schiavo dies. I think agreement on both sides that there will be an autopsy. But after that, the division between the Schiavo and Schindler families continues with completely different wishes of what they plan to do for funeral arrangements.
KAYE: Absolutely, Daryn. The Schindlers, according to the Roman Catholic beliefs, they wanted their daughter buried here in Florida. They did not want her cremated. They had repeatedly asked for that. Judge Greer denied that -- Judge George Greer, that is, here at the 6th Judicial Circuit Court. He denied that request. And he did agree with Michael Schiavo's request, which is to have his wife cremated and have her remains buried and her ashes buried at the family plot in Pennsylvania, the Schiavo family plot.
So there is still much disagreement about that, and still no word on exactly what will happen now. We do know that there will be an autopsy done, an autopsy performed on Terri Schiavo. Michael Schiavo would like to know how much damage was done to her brain during that stroke 15 years ago, and he has agreed to allow that autopsy to be done and then have his wife cremated. KAGAN: Father Frank Pavone was with us before, just a few minutes ago. He said he was with Terri Schiavo and her brother and her sister about 10 or 15 minutes before she died. They left the room because they said that they were told it was time for an assessment, a medical assessment, not realizing how close she was to death. But also made it clear that even if police had to be present, that they wanted -- the Schindler family wanted to be in the room with Terri Schiavo when she died. They say Michael Schiavo denied that request. Any response from George Felos' office?
KAYE: Not yet. But I can tell you that even since over the weekend, we've be talking with George Felos about what will happen in the final hours and the final minutes, and Mr. Felos had said, we will have a pretty good idea of when the time is here and when the time will come. And he said that they were working on an agreement. He wouldn't say if there was anybody was involved trying to get the two sides together, such as a mediator. But they were working on an agreement, according to George Felos, on how the two sides would be able to be together at some point in Terri's final minutes to say good-bye.
Apparently that did not happen. Whether or not that's because an agreement wasn't reached, we certainly don't know yet, but apparently, according to what we've heard this morning, the Schindler family was not in that room at the time. So it's still yet to be determined whether or not an agreement was reached. But that is something that they were trying to do.
KAGAN: Randi Kaye in Dunedin, Florida. Randi, thank you. We'll be back to you. And as you said, George Felos, Michael Schiavo's attorney, expected to speak later today. You'll see that live right here on CNN.
As we get close to the top of the hour, for those of you just joining us, let's go back to our breaking and developing news. Terri Schiavo has died. She was 41 years old. The death comes 15 years after she collapsed in her own home, suffered brain damage, and many, many years of legal fights. Also, it comes 14 days after her husband won a long legal fight to have her feeding tube removed. According to wire reports, Terri Schiavo died at 9:05 a.m. Eastern, so we're coming up on about two hours ago.
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