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CNN Live Today

Terri Schiavo's Sad Tale Comes to an End

Aired March 31, 2005 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: We do not have an official time of death. But it was about 9:50 a.m. Eastern Time by my watch, about 10 minutes ago, when the word became official down in Pinellas Park, Florida. Terri Schiavo has died after 14 days without water or nourishment at that hospice.
Have to end the show. Good to have you here.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN CO-ANCHOR: It was a pleasure to be here. And I know we'll be following it throughout the day. I mean now comes the whole spiritual side of this and what's next for the family and Terri Schiavo, as she -- as they start planning her funeral.

HEMMER: As we mentioned, such a private affair between these two families played out publicly for so many years. Much more coverage coming up here on CNN, we want to get to our colleague now, Daryn Kagan, at the CNN Center.

Daryn, good morning.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR: Good morning to both of you. This is a story, the story of Terri Schiavo that has that had attention not just across the United States, all across the world. And on that note, I'd like to welcome our viewers that are joining us on CNN International around the world.

Once again, Terri Schiavo has died 15 years after she collapsed after a heart attack and suffering brain damage, after many years of a very bitter family battle about what was to be her fate. We got the first word that Terri Schiavo had passed just about 10 minutes ago. Brother Paul O'Donnell, a man who has been counseling the Schindler family, came out and gave this word. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRO. PAUL O'DONNELL, SCHINDLER SPIRITUAL ADVISER: It is with great sadness that it's been reported to us that Terri Schiavo has passed away. The family will be making a statement some time today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: And when we do hear from the family, of course, we'll go live back to Pinellas Park.

Meanwhile, let's go back to our correspondent who has been covering this for many days now. Our Bob Franken standing outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo has passed away -- Bob. BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Daryn, to the last, this was fought out in a very bitter way. As we all well know now, this has been an intensely angry dispute between Michael Schiavo, the husband and guardian of Terri Schiavo who is the one who ordered that the tube be disconnected, and the blood relatives, the Schindlers and the siblings of Terri Schiavo who were fighting just as hard and in a remarkable fashion to have the feeding tube reconnected.

A fight that has taken to us the halls of Congress in an extraordinary session, back through the federal court system over and over, up to the Supreme Court repeatedly, where the Supreme Court would reject the legal arguments that had been denied in lower courts.

And then, of course, to the final moments here. And in the final moments, the fight continued between the two sides. The blood relatives tried very hard through the night and through the morning to be at the bedside of Terri Schiavo when their daughter, their sister died. That was denied by Michael Schiavo. He repeatedly said he was worried that this would become something that would be unmanageably awkward.

The family even said publicly that they would allow some sort of intermediary, meaning police, to be in the room to keep order. But that did not happen. The family was notified just moments after Terri Schiavo died. And they were inside, as Brother O'Donnell came out and made the announcement for the world that had been watching this so closely.

KAGAN: All right. Bob, we'll be back with you in just a moment. Right now I want to bring in our medical colleague Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Fourteen days that Terri Schiavo went without that feeding tube. That was about what experts were predicting about how someone in that condition, how long they would last.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And she's different than a lot of people. And there are not studies done on this sort of thing, per se. But she was a young, healthy person short of her brain before all this started to happen. Most likely where this number came from was sort of trying to predict what would happen to her organs without any kind of fluid. Specifically her kidneys. We kept talking about that, the lack of urine output one indicator.

But what that really meant was these toxins that the kidneys normally filter out were building up in her blood stream. Most likely what happened 10 minutes ago, 15 minutes ago now, Daryn, was the electrolytes in her blood were so off kilter that they caused her heart to stop beating well. She stopped pumping blood to the rest of her body and that's what causes death.

KAGAN: One thing -- one of the few things that both sides of this family have agreed on, that there would be an autopsy after Terri Schiavo passed away. What do you look for after somebody like this passes away? GUPTA: Well, you know, an autopsy is a very concrete thing. And medical investigators, medical examiners look for several different things. First, just an external exam of the body looking for what's the status of the bones. What's the status of the skin? Then basically looking at the body and then basically doing an autopsy, actually looking at the organs. Trying to predict that did they fail the way they thought they were going to fail. Or was there anything unusual that happened here?

They're also going to look for things that are less likely. Was there too much morphine in the blood stream? Was the potassium too high or too low, for example? No one is saying that that's happened. But they do look for these sorts of things. Most critical to Terri though, is probably going to be the neuropathologists.

KAGAN: What they see in her brain?

GUPTA: Looking at the brain. And you know, we've been showing some images. I don't know if we have some of those images now. But basically, the brain of someone who is in a persistent vegetative state has some sort of predictable, consistent features. No one will say, no medical investigator that we talked to will say I can say for sure that this is a brain of a PVS patient. But...

KAGAN: When they're alive or once they're dead.

GUPTA: During the autopsy.

KAGAN: Right. OK.

GUPTA: They can't say that for sure. But what they can say is in conjunction with what she looked like clinically, this make more sense. It's adding more fuel to the argument that she was in a persistent vegetative state or that she wasn't. And that's what they're going to be looking for. This whole process could take a week or two even to get some conclusions.

KAGAN: I have another question for you. Stay put.

GUPTA: OK.

KAGAN: We have the Reverend Jesse Jackson, a man who in the last week has come to the counsel of the Schindler family. He's on the phone with me right now.

Reverend Jackson, your comments in these moments after Terri Schiavo has passed away.

REV. JESSE JACKSON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Well, I'm saddened by her passing. And I'm pained by it. At least, this was unnecessary. And in the end, without food and water for 14 days she was starved and hazard death. So to me, it was merciless rather than merciful.

Of course, at the very end, she also was a victim of a strong family feud. Until the end, the parents could not see her in the last moments before she died. And then there will be a big fight apparently over whether she should buried in Florida or cremated and put across Pennsylvania. So she's also (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on cross fire.

KAGAN: This is a clearly, clearly divided family that is bitter on both sides, as you point out, as moves continues even after Terri Schiavo has died. Anything as a reverend you can offer, words of comfort? Because this is something that families across America, across the world face every day, different wishes for their loved ones.

JACKSON: I said to the family yesterday, be prepared for her to live and be prepared for her to die. When faith speaks only your faith can speak back. And you've lost a lot in Terri, but you also have a lot left. They have another son and you have another daughter left.

What lesson did we learn from her long ordeal? One, her sickness has triggered a huge national health debate in our country. The congressmen, who were interested in coming back to Washington last week, turned their pain into public policy. For example, she was the beneficiary of a medical malpractice lawsuit. She needed long-term health care. She needed Medicaid and the like. And so let's turn our pain now into policies that can help other people in a same or similar condition.

KAGAN: And do you think ultimately that will be Terri Schiavo's legacy, in addition to getting families across America to sit down and talk and put down in writing what truly is their final wishes?

JACKSON: Yes. If it reduced her to a symbol and a trophy, it all stops right here. If we turn her pain into policy, then her legacy will be one raising the consciousness about the need for long- term health care provisions.

Of course, the other part of this that families must find, no matter how divided they are, they must find some common ground in the person who is suffering. And with their own pain. And somehow, this family did not do that. But with the help of God, we can still overcome. And this is where today the family through their pain and bitterness to think this way, but nothing is too hard for God. And lean on your faith and not your own understanding, and God will see you through.

KAGAN: Reverend Jackson, do you have plans to be with the family later today?

JACKSON: Well, I've been talking with them all the morning. And I do not know what the next steps are because it's much too early for any arrangement to have been determined. So all we can do now is -- the family is still with Terri. And they're not prepared to make arrangements yet. But the question is Michael will have one set of arrangements, no doubt. And the family will have another set of arrangements. So even onto the death, this division continues.

KAGAN: And that is so sad. The Reverend Jesse Jackson, thank you for calling in. JACKSON: Thank you.

KAGAN: And thank you for your comments.

These live scenes taking place outside the hospice in Pinellas Park where Terri Schiavo died within the last hour.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My savior God to me how great Thou art how great Thou art. Then sings my soul my savior God to me how great Thou art...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My savior God to me how great Thou art how great Thou art. Then sings my soul my savior God to me how great Thou art...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My savior God to me how great Thou art how great Thou art. Then sings my soul my savior God to me how great Thou art...

KAGAN: This just some of the protesters that have been gathering outside the hospice in recent weeks. Also over about the last 10 days, we've heard a lot from the Schindler family, from Terri Schiavo's parents. Have not heard a lot directly from her husband, Michael Schiavo. Her guardian, the one who ultimately the courts decided had the final say in what would happen to her. And would have the final say in respecting what Michael Schiavo says was his wife's wishes. And that was to have that feeding tube pulled.

We have heard though, a lot from Michael Schiavo's attorney George Felos. Our Randi Kaye is outside his office right now in Florida -- Randi.

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Daryn, I will tell you the last we saw of George Felos, he was outside here at his office about 9:20 yesterday morning. That is when he left his office and went over to the hospice. Over the last few days, he's been visiting with Terri Schiavo at the hospice for, oh, half an hour here and there. And he's been giving us reports about her condition and how she is doing.

And he's been over there since yesterday morning. And we understand it was a bit emotional last night. And we have not seen him yet today. We do expect a statement from him at some point. He said he would make that available to us. So we're basically here on watch at his office waiting for him to arrive back here -- Daryn.

KAGAN: All right. When we hear from George Felos or Michael Schiavo, we will go back to you. Thank you for that.

I want to bring Dr. Gupta back and ask you another question because I left you with a question about the autopsy.

GUPTA: Yes.

KAGAN: You said we're going to get a lot of information from that. But go back to when the doctors who were allowed -- this group of doctors that were allowed to examine and make their interpretation of Terri Schiavo. Looking at the same patient, at the same information came away with completely different interpretations. Why would it not be the same way looking at autopsy results?

GUPTA: Yes. And we saw some of those tapes for the first time today, the actual exams upon which these varying conclusions were based with Dr. Cranford and Dr. Hammesfahr. You know, Daryn, I think in some ways it's sort of striking at the underbelly of neuroscience. It is not an exact science. And I do think families and patients, as a practicing doctor I think they understand that. The legal system and the system that we've seen here around Terri Schiavo has forced us to make some concrete absolutisms where none exist.

With regard to your question about the autopsy, that is going to be more of a scientific process. Specifically, you're looking at years of the brain that experience cell death. Were those areas of the brain, had they actually died away as long as 15 years ago in 1990? And if so, what are those areas of the brain responsible for? Would she have been able to understand or communicate? Those areas of the brain definitively are gone on an autopsy, then you can make some more arguments towards either persistent vegetative state or not.

You're right, you're not going to be able to answer those question conclusively even with an autopsy. But it is a more scientific process. It's probably going to add a little more merit one way or the other.

KAGAN: Here is another thing we don't know as we've gone through all this. Both sides talking about what Terri Schiavo has been experiencing over the last 14 days. Everything from a state of euphoria to being murdered and in complete pain. Fourteen days ago she wasn't able to speak. Now she's gone not able to speak. We still don't know what this experience was for her or for other people in similar conditions.

GUPTA: And we will never know, obviously, because she cannot tell us. But what we do know with some scientific data based on people who had been in end of life situations who were able to communicate. This is a common thing, Daryn. I think it's worth pointing out again. This happens every day in this country. There are families out there watching right now who are going through this exact same situation.

Terminal cancer patients, for example, in hospices around the country are a lot of times have their feeding tubes removed and go through the same process. The data that you heard in terms of not experiencing pain, the sense of euphoria is based on those people telling, listen. There was no pain we actually felt good in some ways. That's the euphoria they're talking about. But with Terri Schiavo we'll never know for sure.

KAGAN: And that is also another story that was, I think, underreported. And that is the work that hospice workers are doing to help families and to help patients like Terri Schiavo. They do incredible work every single day.

GUPTA: This is what they're trained to do. And by all accounts Terri Schiavo received immaculate care for 15 years. Not one bed sore in 15 years. Even Christopher Reeves, which you and I have talked about a great deal, had some troubles with the immaculate care that he was receiving. Terri Schiavo got good care for 15 years, which is probably why there was two weeks that expired after she had her feeding tube taken out.

KAGAN: All right. Sanjay, thank you for that.

GUPTA: Thank you.

KAGAN: We have on the phone with us Jeffrey Toobin, our legal analyst. Jeff, the other big part of this story over probably the last nine or 10 years has been in the courts. The story that ended only in the wee hours of today.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Really extraordinary. You know, Daryn, the Supreme Court considered this case six times, four times in the last month, never issuing an opinion. But I think really the most extraordinary legal legacy of this case will be the law that was passed in Congress two weeks ago, a law designed entirely to benefit a single patient. Something literally unprecedented in American political or legal history. And the implications of that I think are very uncertain whether

KAGAN: Jeff, let me just jump in here because we're listening to you. But we're also looking at live pictures from Pinellas Park. And there we see the brother and sister of Terri Schiavo. Well, it's live pictures. So bear with us here as the camera moves around a little bit. We do anticipate they might be coming up to the microphone. If they do, of course, we will be listening in to the Schindler family.

The police giving them protection so that they're not -- so they don't have to deal with the crowd. Obviously, a very difficult time for this family, losing their sister Terri and the bitter feud that went on with Michael Schiavo to the very end. They had requested to be able to be there in her final moments. A spokesperson for the family saying that that was not possible. That they did not get to see Terri until right after she died.

Let me ask you about that, Jeff, the legacy in terms of guardianship.

TOOBIN: Well, I think, you know, it is hard to think of anything positive to come out of such an unremittingly sad story. But I think thousands, if not millions of Americans are looking into their own living wills, actual wills...

KAGAN: Jeff. Jeff. Jeff, hold on. Let's go in and listen to Pinellas Park.

DAVID GIBBS, SCHINDLER FAMILY ATTORNEY: Died at 9:05 this morning. Bob Schindler, her father, and Mary Schindler, her mother, have asked for us to let you know that. And that they will be grieving personally today. And that Bob will be speaking on behalf of the family later this afternoon. Bobby Schindler Jr., Terri's brother, Suzy and Father Pavone were with Terri up until 10 minutes before she passed. They had the opportunity to be in the room and with her up until that point.

Again, while they are heartsick, this is indeed a sad day for the nation. This is a sad day for the family. Their faith in God remains consistent and strong. They are absolutely convinced that God loves Terri more than they do. They believe that Terri is now ultimately at peace with God Himself. And they intend to comfort themselves with their faith and with their family at this time.

We would ask respectfully that the media allow them privacy at their home to grieve, as you can imagine, as a mom and dad. This is a very difficult day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was Michael Schiavo with Terri when she died?

GIBBS: I don't know. Father Pavone is going to give a brief statement as well, as he was in the room with Bobby and with Suzanne.

And Father, if you'd address them.

FR. FRANK PAVONE: Thank you. We were, as David said, in Terri's room about 10 or 15 minutes before she died. All the prayers of the church were offered for her. And the concern of millions of people around this country was expressed to her in no uncertain terms.

She felt the solidarity that all of you who have been praying for her and writing to the family and asking what you could do. All of that sacrifice, all of that concern was conveyed to Terri by caresses on her hair and holding of her hand and praying with her right up until her very last moments.

Unfortunately, just 10 or so minutes before she died, we were told that we had to leave the room because there would be an assessment of her condition, and then a visitation by Michael. Bobby Schindler, her brother said, "We want to be in the room when she dies." Michael Schiavo said, "No, you cannot." And so his heartless cruelty continues until this very last moment.

At the same time once she did pass away, we were called back into the room. And at that point, only the immediate family was able to go in to give her their final embraces. I stood at the doorway and offered the prayers of the church for those who have just died.

As has been said, we will have further comments later in the day. Let me just say one more thing that this is not only a death with all the sadness that brings. This is a killing. And for that, we not only grieve that Terri has passed, but we grieve that our nation has allowed such an atrocity as this. and we pray that it will never happen again. Thank you all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was Michael in the room when they went in for that last time?

PAVONE: I did not see him at that point. In fact, when I went in after it was announced that she had died, my first question was where is Michael? He was nowhere to be seen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What kind of final embrace did the Schindlers give to Terri?

PAVONE: An embrace with tears and with great grief.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was she alert?

(CROSSTALK)

PAVONE: We'll be back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Father, can you tell your name?

PAVONE: Yes, I'm sorry. I'm Father Frank Pavone, national director of Priests for Life. We'll have more comment later.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Father, was her eyes open at the last...

KAGAN: We just heard comments from David Gibbs, the attorney for the Schindler family and also Father Frank Pavone talking about some of Terri Schiavo's final moments. Saying that her brother and sister were allowed to be in there with her and Father Pavone as well, about 10 or 15 minutes before she died. According to Father Pavone, they were asked to leave by Michael Schiavo in the minutes before Terri Schiavo died.

Let's bring our Bob Franken in who has been at the hospice for many days now.

Bob, part of the sad part of the story is that the bitter feud between both sides of this family continues, not only at the moment of would appear of Terri Schiavo's death but also as the funeral arrangements go forward.

FRANKEN: As the funeral arrangements go forward, and the bitter aftertaste of the blood relatives said that they were denied access when Terri Schiavo died. There's also going to be recrimination aplenty about the institutions of government that got into this, Congress and the reactions to its extraordinary action.

The court system, David Gibbs who you just saw speaking a moment ago, is the person who after Congress ordered new federal judicial review is the one who created the cases. And many have criticized his arguments for being, a word that I'm going to choose "exotic," arguments that were quickly rebuffed by the court systems repeatedly. The most recent being the U.S. Supreme Court again last night turning down any appeals.

This is something that is very bitter. And of course, Bob and Mary Schindler, on the one hand have enlisted the public display of their daughter. They've used the public display of that in a very, very high profile campaign. But at the same token, this is a very private tragedy. So they chose to leave this morning. We saw them get into a vehicle just a few minutes ago. And as we heard Father Pavone say and David Gibbs say, they're going to go home now for what is really the case when you lose a member of your family, a need for some private grieving to decide what to do next. And they'll acknowledge the public later, when we're told Bob Schindler is going to come and speak to reporters who are gathered out there.

KAGAN: And when that happens, of course, we'll go live to those microphones. Bob, thank you. Back to you in just a moment.

Right now, I want to go back to the phones. Dr. Jay Wolfson at one point was the medical guardian for Terri Schiavo. He joins me on the phone now from Tallahassee, Florida -- Dr. Wolfson.

DR. JAY WOLFSON, FMR. MEDICAL GUARDIAN FOR TERRI SCHIAVO: Hello, Daryn.

KAGAN: What can you say at this moment, we're just moments from when Terri Schiavo has passed away?

WOLFSON: This whole incident has been such a great tragedy for the family, for the parents, for Michael. I think for many Americans as well. You know, Michael and Mary spent four years of their lives hand in hand, arm in arm caring for her. The record on that is very clear. There was nothing but close family love, attention and undying hope.

Even though early on they were told in no uncertain terms that there was no reasonable hope for recovering medically, they didn't dispute it, but they held on to that belief because they loved her so much, all of them. And they worked so aggressively, Michael to get special implants into her brain, to push hard for forms of therapy.

And then the acrimony that developed, which is so sad because this is a loving, caring family. And the thing that they had in common, their love for Terri is the thing that tore them apart. And in the end, you know, that Terri hopefully now is finding some peace. I pray that's the most important thing that comes of this.

But the pain that Mary in particular I know must feel and that I believe Michael feels as well. You know, these last 15 years have been filled with acrimony and pain. And there's nothing, there's nothing that anybody can imagine more than having their loved one, their child, their daughter, their wife die under these circumstances, especially in public view. But it really is a private matter. And I'm sure their hearts are continually being ripped out now. This is so sad.

KAGAN: Dr. Wolfson, what was your role as her medical guardian? How long was that for and what do you?

WOLFSON: I was appointed subsequent to what became known as Terri's Law, which the Florida legislature passed that authorized the governor to reinsert Terri's feeding tube. The law also required that a special guardian ad litem, a guardian of law be appointed specifically to represent Terri's interest. And to review of all the medical and legal records there, about 30,000 pages of medical documents and legal documents.

I'm an attorney as well. And I had only 30 days to do this, Daryn. And I was in town for 20 of those days. Each of those days when I wasn't reviewing documents, I was either with the Schindler family, or with Michael, or with them and Terri, or with Terri alone. I spent as many as four hours a day with Terri.

And part of my goal and part of my charge was to determine whether or not additional swallowing tests should be performed, additional neurologic tests should be performed, and to summarize the medical and legal records. And the competent medical evidence and the competent legal evidence that's in the record, that the courts reviewed dozens of times, indicated that according to the rules of procedure of Florida law, the rules of evidence in Florida law, and the guidelines of the carefully crafted guardianship law in Florida, that Terri met the criteria for being in a persistent vegetative state using the Clear and Convincing Evidence Test.

But I suggested that there should be the possibility of additional tests performed, but only if both sides would agree in advance as to how those could be used. And you know the acrimony between the parties made it very difficult to accomplish that.

KAGAN: I understandable. Dr. Wolfson, I have with us our medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta -- well, we're going to listen in a moment, and then Sanjay will ask a question of Dr. Wolfson.

As we continue our rolling coverage of the death of Terri Schiavo, we will be going back and forth between live pictures of Pinellas Park. Bringing you any comments of family members and also be talking to people who had some relationship to her.

We've been talking on the phone with Dr. Jay Wolfson. He was at one point the medical guardian appointed to Terri Schiavo by the state of Florida. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, our medical correspondent also joining me. And Sanjay has a question for Dr. Wolfson.

GUPTA: And Dr. Wolfson, obviously, a lot of controversy over what her specific diagnosis was, persistent vegetative state. I just heard you say that you spent four hours a day with her in some situations. Did anything ever surprise you? Did anything ever sort of strike you to maybe make you think that she was in something more than a persistent vegetative state?

And I'm not sure if Dr. Wolfson is still with us. Are you still -- OK. No problem.

You know, really trying to -- again, the controversy, it is so difficult. Neurologists -- board certified neurologists still were not able to come to a conclusion. After many exams, we saw some of those. Ten hours they would spend with her on some occasions.

KAGAN: Seeing the same thing, the same patient, the same information.

GUPTA: That's what was so striking. I mean I watched those exams, Daryn, and they were doing the exact same neurological exam. And then I heard their conclusions at the end. Very different conclusions as you watch them going through the same exam.

And again, you know, there's no excuses. But there's also no absolutisms when it comes to this sort of thing. And I think we're seeing some of that here. We'll hopefully get some more information from Dr. Wolfson later on.

KAGAN: Stay put. We'll work on getting Dr. Wolfson back.

Meanwhile, let's go to the phones. Our David Mattingly on the phone from Tampa.

David, what do you have?

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Darrell, I've just been speaking with John Centonze who is the brother of Jody Centonze, the girlfriend and mother of the children with Michael Schiavo. They've been very close -- in very close contact with Michael Schiavo. They tell me that he was in the room at the time that Terri Schiavo passed.

Michael Schiavo has almost not left the hospice at all since the feeding tube was removed. They tell he has only left hospice occasionally to be in touch with his lawyer, but otherwise he's been at the hospice the entire time since the feeding tube was removed.

We were here with the -- with John Centonze when that phone call came in. He himself became very emotional. He said that his sister was very upset. The family all grieving very deeply right now, even though this is something that had been expected for quite some time.

They say that they've been through a lot. They say that they've received threats in recent days. And that the family has been very tired. He said the last time he saw Michael Schiavo he said -- earlier this week, he said he looked very tired. He looked terrible. He had not been getting much sleep. But again, he'd been spending almost every minute of the day and night at the hospice. And that he was in the room at the time that Terri passed.

KAGAN: And the Schiavo family has been a lot less public than the Schindler family in recent days. Michael Schiavo has been -- we've heard reports, has been at the hospice. But has been using not a public entrance, whereas we see the Schindler family go through the front door, and through the crowds, and in front of the cameras.

MATTINGLY: That's right. It's been a very stark contrast between the ways these two families have deciding to spend the last days of Terri Schiavo. The Schiavo family deciding that they were going to keep this as something very private, not do any interview, stay out of the camera range as much as possible.

Terri Schiavo's family was able to go in and visit her upon request. They were making sure that they were not in the room at the same time that Michael Schiavo had been. And as far as John Centonze knows, he says the family was not denied when they wanted to go in these past few days. So again, two families choosing to handle these days -- these last days of Terri Schiavo very differently.

We are told that at the time word came down, that Jody Centonze was taking her oldest child to school and was going to be going to school herself. Michael Schiavo's brother was actually at the family house with their younger child. The couple has two children together. And when word came down, the family -- phone calls went out very quickly. And we were here actually when John Centonze received his phone call.

This is a man -- the Centonze family never knew act -- never Terri Schiavo before her heart attack. But they say they've come to know her very closely through the stories that Michael has told. And they are all very upset and grieving as they lost someone that they feel they actually knew very well.

KAGAN: Our David Mattingly on the phone from Tampa.

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Aired March 31, 2005 - 10:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: We do not have an official time of death. But it was about 9:50 a.m. Eastern Time by my watch, about 10 minutes ago, when the word became official down in Pinellas Park, Florida. Terri Schiavo has died after 14 days without water or nourishment at that hospice.
Have to end the show. Good to have you here.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN CO-ANCHOR: It was a pleasure to be here. And I know we'll be following it throughout the day. I mean now comes the whole spiritual side of this and what's next for the family and Terri Schiavo, as she -- as they start planning her funeral.

HEMMER: As we mentioned, such a private affair between these two families played out publicly for so many years. Much more coverage coming up here on CNN, we want to get to our colleague now, Daryn Kagan, at the CNN Center.

Daryn, good morning.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR: Good morning to both of you. This is a story, the story of Terri Schiavo that has that had attention not just across the United States, all across the world. And on that note, I'd like to welcome our viewers that are joining us on CNN International around the world.

Once again, Terri Schiavo has died 15 years after she collapsed after a heart attack and suffering brain damage, after many years of a very bitter family battle about what was to be her fate. We got the first word that Terri Schiavo had passed just about 10 minutes ago. Brother Paul O'Donnell, a man who has been counseling the Schindler family, came out and gave this word. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRO. PAUL O'DONNELL, SCHINDLER SPIRITUAL ADVISER: It is with great sadness that it's been reported to us that Terri Schiavo has passed away. The family will be making a statement some time today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: And when we do hear from the family, of course, we'll go live back to Pinellas Park.

Meanwhile, let's go back to our correspondent who has been covering this for many days now. Our Bob Franken standing outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo has passed away -- Bob. BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Daryn, to the last, this was fought out in a very bitter way. As we all well know now, this has been an intensely angry dispute between Michael Schiavo, the husband and guardian of Terri Schiavo who is the one who ordered that the tube be disconnected, and the blood relatives, the Schindlers and the siblings of Terri Schiavo who were fighting just as hard and in a remarkable fashion to have the feeding tube reconnected.

A fight that has taken to us the halls of Congress in an extraordinary session, back through the federal court system over and over, up to the Supreme Court repeatedly, where the Supreme Court would reject the legal arguments that had been denied in lower courts.

And then, of course, to the final moments here. And in the final moments, the fight continued between the two sides. The blood relatives tried very hard through the night and through the morning to be at the bedside of Terri Schiavo when their daughter, their sister died. That was denied by Michael Schiavo. He repeatedly said he was worried that this would become something that would be unmanageably awkward.

The family even said publicly that they would allow some sort of intermediary, meaning police, to be in the room to keep order. But that did not happen. The family was notified just moments after Terri Schiavo died. And they were inside, as Brother O'Donnell came out and made the announcement for the world that had been watching this so closely.

KAGAN: All right. Bob, we'll be back with you in just a moment. Right now I want to bring in our medical colleague Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Fourteen days that Terri Schiavo went without that feeding tube. That was about what experts were predicting about how someone in that condition, how long they would last.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And she's different than a lot of people. And there are not studies done on this sort of thing, per se. But she was a young, healthy person short of her brain before all this started to happen. Most likely where this number came from was sort of trying to predict what would happen to her organs without any kind of fluid. Specifically her kidneys. We kept talking about that, the lack of urine output one indicator.

But what that really meant was these toxins that the kidneys normally filter out were building up in her blood stream. Most likely what happened 10 minutes ago, 15 minutes ago now, Daryn, was the electrolytes in her blood were so off kilter that they caused her heart to stop beating well. She stopped pumping blood to the rest of her body and that's what causes death.

KAGAN: One thing -- one of the few things that both sides of this family have agreed on, that there would be an autopsy after Terri Schiavo passed away. What do you look for after somebody like this passes away? GUPTA: Well, you know, an autopsy is a very concrete thing. And medical investigators, medical examiners look for several different things. First, just an external exam of the body looking for what's the status of the bones. What's the status of the skin? Then basically looking at the body and then basically doing an autopsy, actually looking at the organs. Trying to predict that did they fail the way they thought they were going to fail. Or was there anything unusual that happened here?

They're also going to look for things that are less likely. Was there too much morphine in the blood stream? Was the potassium too high or too low, for example? No one is saying that that's happened. But they do look for these sorts of things. Most critical to Terri though, is probably going to be the neuropathologists.

KAGAN: What they see in her brain?

GUPTA: Looking at the brain. And you know, we've been showing some images. I don't know if we have some of those images now. But basically, the brain of someone who is in a persistent vegetative state has some sort of predictable, consistent features. No one will say, no medical investigator that we talked to will say I can say for sure that this is a brain of a PVS patient. But...

KAGAN: When they're alive or once they're dead.

GUPTA: During the autopsy.

KAGAN: Right. OK.

GUPTA: They can't say that for sure. But what they can say is in conjunction with what she looked like clinically, this make more sense. It's adding more fuel to the argument that she was in a persistent vegetative state or that she wasn't. And that's what they're going to be looking for. This whole process could take a week or two even to get some conclusions.

KAGAN: I have another question for you. Stay put.

GUPTA: OK.

KAGAN: We have the Reverend Jesse Jackson, a man who in the last week has come to the counsel of the Schindler family. He's on the phone with me right now.

Reverend Jackson, your comments in these moments after Terri Schiavo has passed away.

REV. JESSE JACKSON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Well, I'm saddened by her passing. And I'm pained by it. At least, this was unnecessary. And in the end, without food and water for 14 days she was starved and hazard death. So to me, it was merciless rather than merciful.

Of course, at the very end, she also was a victim of a strong family feud. Until the end, the parents could not see her in the last moments before she died. And then there will be a big fight apparently over whether she should buried in Florida or cremated and put across Pennsylvania. So she's also (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on cross fire.

KAGAN: This is a clearly, clearly divided family that is bitter on both sides, as you point out, as moves continues even after Terri Schiavo has died. Anything as a reverend you can offer, words of comfort? Because this is something that families across America, across the world face every day, different wishes for their loved ones.

JACKSON: I said to the family yesterday, be prepared for her to live and be prepared for her to die. When faith speaks only your faith can speak back. And you've lost a lot in Terri, but you also have a lot left. They have another son and you have another daughter left.

What lesson did we learn from her long ordeal? One, her sickness has triggered a huge national health debate in our country. The congressmen, who were interested in coming back to Washington last week, turned their pain into public policy. For example, she was the beneficiary of a medical malpractice lawsuit. She needed long-term health care. She needed Medicaid and the like. And so let's turn our pain now into policies that can help other people in a same or similar condition.

KAGAN: And do you think ultimately that will be Terri Schiavo's legacy, in addition to getting families across America to sit down and talk and put down in writing what truly is their final wishes?

JACKSON: Yes. If it reduced her to a symbol and a trophy, it all stops right here. If we turn her pain into policy, then her legacy will be one raising the consciousness about the need for long- term health care provisions.

Of course, the other part of this that families must find, no matter how divided they are, they must find some common ground in the person who is suffering. And with their own pain. And somehow, this family did not do that. But with the help of God, we can still overcome. And this is where today the family through their pain and bitterness to think this way, but nothing is too hard for God. And lean on your faith and not your own understanding, and God will see you through.

KAGAN: Reverend Jackson, do you have plans to be with the family later today?

JACKSON: Well, I've been talking with them all the morning. And I do not know what the next steps are because it's much too early for any arrangement to have been determined. So all we can do now is -- the family is still with Terri. And they're not prepared to make arrangements yet. But the question is Michael will have one set of arrangements, no doubt. And the family will have another set of arrangements. So even onto the death, this division continues.

KAGAN: And that is so sad. The Reverend Jesse Jackson, thank you for calling in. JACKSON: Thank you.

KAGAN: And thank you for your comments.

These live scenes taking place outside the hospice in Pinellas Park where Terri Schiavo died within the last hour.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My savior God to me how great Thou art how great Thou art. Then sings my soul my savior God to me how great Thou art...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My savior God to me how great Thou art how great Thou art. Then sings my soul my savior God to me how great Thou art...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My savior God to me how great Thou art how great Thou art. Then sings my soul my savior God to me how great Thou art...

KAGAN: This just some of the protesters that have been gathering outside the hospice in recent weeks. Also over about the last 10 days, we've heard a lot from the Schindler family, from Terri Schiavo's parents. Have not heard a lot directly from her husband, Michael Schiavo. Her guardian, the one who ultimately the courts decided had the final say in what would happen to her. And would have the final say in respecting what Michael Schiavo says was his wife's wishes. And that was to have that feeding tube pulled.

We have heard though, a lot from Michael Schiavo's attorney George Felos. Our Randi Kaye is outside his office right now in Florida -- Randi.

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Daryn, I will tell you the last we saw of George Felos, he was outside here at his office about 9:20 yesterday morning. That is when he left his office and went over to the hospice. Over the last few days, he's been visiting with Terri Schiavo at the hospice for, oh, half an hour here and there. And he's been giving us reports about her condition and how she is doing.

And he's been over there since yesterday morning. And we understand it was a bit emotional last night. And we have not seen him yet today. We do expect a statement from him at some point. He said he would make that available to us. So we're basically here on watch at his office waiting for him to arrive back here -- Daryn.

KAGAN: All right. When we hear from George Felos or Michael Schiavo, we will go back to you. Thank you for that.

I want to bring Dr. Gupta back and ask you another question because I left you with a question about the autopsy.

GUPTA: Yes.

KAGAN: You said we're going to get a lot of information from that. But go back to when the doctors who were allowed -- this group of doctors that were allowed to examine and make their interpretation of Terri Schiavo. Looking at the same patient, at the same information came away with completely different interpretations. Why would it not be the same way looking at autopsy results?

GUPTA: Yes. And we saw some of those tapes for the first time today, the actual exams upon which these varying conclusions were based with Dr. Cranford and Dr. Hammesfahr. You know, Daryn, I think in some ways it's sort of striking at the underbelly of neuroscience. It is not an exact science. And I do think families and patients, as a practicing doctor I think they understand that. The legal system and the system that we've seen here around Terri Schiavo has forced us to make some concrete absolutisms where none exist.

With regard to your question about the autopsy, that is going to be more of a scientific process. Specifically, you're looking at years of the brain that experience cell death. Were those areas of the brain, had they actually died away as long as 15 years ago in 1990? And if so, what are those areas of the brain responsible for? Would she have been able to understand or communicate? Those areas of the brain definitively are gone on an autopsy, then you can make some more arguments towards either persistent vegetative state or not.

You're right, you're not going to be able to answer those question conclusively even with an autopsy. But it is a more scientific process. It's probably going to add a little more merit one way or the other.

KAGAN: Here is another thing we don't know as we've gone through all this. Both sides talking about what Terri Schiavo has been experiencing over the last 14 days. Everything from a state of euphoria to being murdered and in complete pain. Fourteen days ago she wasn't able to speak. Now she's gone not able to speak. We still don't know what this experience was for her or for other people in similar conditions.

GUPTA: And we will never know, obviously, because she cannot tell us. But what we do know with some scientific data based on people who had been in end of life situations who were able to communicate. This is a common thing, Daryn. I think it's worth pointing out again. This happens every day in this country. There are families out there watching right now who are going through this exact same situation.

Terminal cancer patients, for example, in hospices around the country are a lot of times have their feeding tubes removed and go through the same process. The data that you heard in terms of not experiencing pain, the sense of euphoria is based on those people telling, listen. There was no pain we actually felt good in some ways. That's the euphoria they're talking about. But with Terri Schiavo we'll never know for sure.

KAGAN: And that is also another story that was, I think, underreported. And that is the work that hospice workers are doing to help families and to help patients like Terri Schiavo. They do incredible work every single day.

GUPTA: This is what they're trained to do. And by all accounts Terri Schiavo received immaculate care for 15 years. Not one bed sore in 15 years. Even Christopher Reeves, which you and I have talked about a great deal, had some troubles with the immaculate care that he was receiving. Terri Schiavo got good care for 15 years, which is probably why there was two weeks that expired after she had her feeding tube taken out.

KAGAN: All right. Sanjay, thank you for that.

GUPTA: Thank you.

KAGAN: We have on the phone with us Jeffrey Toobin, our legal analyst. Jeff, the other big part of this story over probably the last nine or 10 years has been in the courts. The story that ended only in the wee hours of today.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Really extraordinary. You know, Daryn, the Supreme Court considered this case six times, four times in the last month, never issuing an opinion. But I think really the most extraordinary legal legacy of this case will be the law that was passed in Congress two weeks ago, a law designed entirely to benefit a single patient. Something literally unprecedented in American political or legal history. And the implications of that I think are very uncertain whether

KAGAN: Jeff, let me just jump in here because we're listening to you. But we're also looking at live pictures from Pinellas Park. And there we see the brother and sister of Terri Schiavo. Well, it's live pictures. So bear with us here as the camera moves around a little bit. We do anticipate they might be coming up to the microphone. If they do, of course, we will be listening in to the Schindler family.

The police giving them protection so that they're not -- so they don't have to deal with the crowd. Obviously, a very difficult time for this family, losing their sister Terri and the bitter feud that went on with Michael Schiavo to the very end. They had requested to be able to be there in her final moments. A spokesperson for the family saying that that was not possible. That they did not get to see Terri until right after she died.

Let me ask you about that, Jeff, the legacy in terms of guardianship.

TOOBIN: Well, I think, you know, it is hard to think of anything positive to come out of such an unremittingly sad story. But I think thousands, if not millions of Americans are looking into their own living wills, actual wills...

KAGAN: Jeff. Jeff. Jeff, hold on. Let's go in and listen to Pinellas Park.

DAVID GIBBS, SCHINDLER FAMILY ATTORNEY: Died at 9:05 this morning. Bob Schindler, her father, and Mary Schindler, her mother, have asked for us to let you know that. And that they will be grieving personally today. And that Bob will be speaking on behalf of the family later this afternoon. Bobby Schindler Jr., Terri's brother, Suzy and Father Pavone were with Terri up until 10 minutes before she passed. They had the opportunity to be in the room and with her up until that point.

Again, while they are heartsick, this is indeed a sad day for the nation. This is a sad day for the family. Their faith in God remains consistent and strong. They are absolutely convinced that God loves Terri more than they do. They believe that Terri is now ultimately at peace with God Himself. And they intend to comfort themselves with their faith and with their family at this time.

We would ask respectfully that the media allow them privacy at their home to grieve, as you can imagine, as a mom and dad. This is a very difficult day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was Michael Schiavo with Terri when she died?

GIBBS: I don't know. Father Pavone is going to give a brief statement as well, as he was in the room with Bobby and with Suzanne.

And Father, if you'd address them.

FR. FRANK PAVONE: Thank you. We were, as David said, in Terri's room about 10 or 15 minutes before she died. All the prayers of the church were offered for her. And the concern of millions of people around this country was expressed to her in no uncertain terms.

She felt the solidarity that all of you who have been praying for her and writing to the family and asking what you could do. All of that sacrifice, all of that concern was conveyed to Terri by caresses on her hair and holding of her hand and praying with her right up until her very last moments.

Unfortunately, just 10 or so minutes before she died, we were told that we had to leave the room because there would be an assessment of her condition, and then a visitation by Michael. Bobby Schindler, her brother said, "We want to be in the room when she dies." Michael Schiavo said, "No, you cannot." And so his heartless cruelty continues until this very last moment.

At the same time once she did pass away, we were called back into the room. And at that point, only the immediate family was able to go in to give her their final embraces. I stood at the doorway and offered the prayers of the church for those who have just died.

As has been said, we will have further comments later in the day. Let me just say one more thing that this is not only a death with all the sadness that brings. This is a killing. And for that, we not only grieve that Terri has passed, but we grieve that our nation has allowed such an atrocity as this. and we pray that it will never happen again. Thank you all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was Michael in the room when they went in for that last time?

PAVONE: I did not see him at that point. In fact, when I went in after it was announced that she had died, my first question was where is Michael? He was nowhere to be seen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What kind of final embrace did the Schindlers give to Terri?

PAVONE: An embrace with tears and with great grief.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was she alert?

(CROSSTALK)

PAVONE: We'll be back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Father, can you tell your name?

PAVONE: Yes, I'm sorry. I'm Father Frank Pavone, national director of Priests for Life. We'll have more comment later.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Father, was her eyes open at the last...

KAGAN: We just heard comments from David Gibbs, the attorney for the Schindler family and also Father Frank Pavone talking about some of Terri Schiavo's final moments. Saying that her brother and sister were allowed to be in there with her and Father Pavone as well, about 10 or 15 minutes before she died. According to Father Pavone, they were asked to leave by Michael Schiavo in the minutes before Terri Schiavo died.

Let's bring our Bob Franken in who has been at the hospice for many days now.

Bob, part of the sad part of the story is that the bitter feud between both sides of this family continues, not only at the moment of would appear of Terri Schiavo's death but also as the funeral arrangements go forward.

FRANKEN: As the funeral arrangements go forward, and the bitter aftertaste of the blood relatives said that they were denied access when Terri Schiavo died. There's also going to be recrimination aplenty about the institutions of government that got into this, Congress and the reactions to its extraordinary action.

The court system, David Gibbs who you just saw speaking a moment ago, is the person who after Congress ordered new federal judicial review is the one who created the cases. And many have criticized his arguments for being, a word that I'm going to choose "exotic," arguments that were quickly rebuffed by the court systems repeatedly. The most recent being the U.S. Supreme Court again last night turning down any appeals.

This is something that is very bitter. And of course, Bob and Mary Schindler, on the one hand have enlisted the public display of their daughter. They've used the public display of that in a very, very high profile campaign. But at the same token, this is a very private tragedy. So they chose to leave this morning. We saw them get into a vehicle just a few minutes ago. And as we heard Father Pavone say and David Gibbs say, they're going to go home now for what is really the case when you lose a member of your family, a need for some private grieving to decide what to do next. And they'll acknowledge the public later, when we're told Bob Schindler is going to come and speak to reporters who are gathered out there.

KAGAN: And when that happens, of course, we'll go live to those microphones. Bob, thank you. Back to you in just a moment.

Right now, I want to go back to the phones. Dr. Jay Wolfson at one point was the medical guardian for Terri Schiavo. He joins me on the phone now from Tallahassee, Florida -- Dr. Wolfson.

DR. JAY WOLFSON, FMR. MEDICAL GUARDIAN FOR TERRI SCHIAVO: Hello, Daryn.

KAGAN: What can you say at this moment, we're just moments from when Terri Schiavo has passed away?

WOLFSON: This whole incident has been such a great tragedy for the family, for the parents, for Michael. I think for many Americans as well. You know, Michael and Mary spent four years of their lives hand in hand, arm in arm caring for her. The record on that is very clear. There was nothing but close family love, attention and undying hope.

Even though early on they were told in no uncertain terms that there was no reasonable hope for recovering medically, they didn't dispute it, but they held on to that belief because they loved her so much, all of them. And they worked so aggressively, Michael to get special implants into her brain, to push hard for forms of therapy.

And then the acrimony that developed, which is so sad because this is a loving, caring family. And the thing that they had in common, their love for Terri is the thing that tore them apart. And in the end, you know, that Terri hopefully now is finding some peace. I pray that's the most important thing that comes of this.

But the pain that Mary in particular I know must feel and that I believe Michael feels as well. You know, these last 15 years have been filled with acrimony and pain. And there's nothing, there's nothing that anybody can imagine more than having their loved one, their child, their daughter, their wife die under these circumstances, especially in public view. But it really is a private matter. And I'm sure their hearts are continually being ripped out now. This is so sad.

KAGAN: Dr. Wolfson, what was your role as her medical guardian? How long was that for and what do you?

WOLFSON: I was appointed subsequent to what became known as Terri's Law, which the Florida legislature passed that authorized the governor to reinsert Terri's feeding tube. The law also required that a special guardian ad litem, a guardian of law be appointed specifically to represent Terri's interest. And to review of all the medical and legal records there, about 30,000 pages of medical documents and legal documents.

I'm an attorney as well. And I had only 30 days to do this, Daryn. And I was in town for 20 of those days. Each of those days when I wasn't reviewing documents, I was either with the Schindler family, or with Michael, or with them and Terri, or with Terri alone. I spent as many as four hours a day with Terri.

And part of my goal and part of my charge was to determine whether or not additional swallowing tests should be performed, additional neurologic tests should be performed, and to summarize the medical and legal records. And the competent medical evidence and the competent legal evidence that's in the record, that the courts reviewed dozens of times, indicated that according to the rules of procedure of Florida law, the rules of evidence in Florida law, and the guidelines of the carefully crafted guardianship law in Florida, that Terri met the criteria for being in a persistent vegetative state using the Clear and Convincing Evidence Test.

But I suggested that there should be the possibility of additional tests performed, but only if both sides would agree in advance as to how those could be used. And you know the acrimony between the parties made it very difficult to accomplish that.

KAGAN: I understandable. Dr. Wolfson, I have with us our medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta -- well, we're going to listen in a moment, and then Sanjay will ask a question of Dr. Wolfson.

As we continue our rolling coverage of the death of Terri Schiavo, we will be going back and forth between live pictures of Pinellas Park. Bringing you any comments of family members and also be talking to people who had some relationship to her.

We've been talking on the phone with Dr. Jay Wolfson. He was at one point the medical guardian appointed to Terri Schiavo by the state of Florida. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, our medical correspondent also joining me. And Sanjay has a question for Dr. Wolfson.

GUPTA: And Dr. Wolfson, obviously, a lot of controversy over what her specific diagnosis was, persistent vegetative state. I just heard you say that you spent four hours a day with her in some situations. Did anything ever surprise you? Did anything ever sort of strike you to maybe make you think that she was in something more than a persistent vegetative state?

And I'm not sure if Dr. Wolfson is still with us. Are you still -- OK. No problem.

You know, really trying to -- again, the controversy, it is so difficult. Neurologists -- board certified neurologists still were not able to come to a conclusion. After many exams, we saw some of those. Ten hours they would spend with her on some occasions.

KAGAN: Seeing the same thing, the same patient, the same information.

GUPTA: That's what was so striking. I mean I watched those exams, Daryn, and they were doing the exact same neurological exam. And then I heard their conclusions at the end. Very different conclusions as you watch them going through the same exam.

And again, you know, there's no excuses. But there's also no absolutisms when it comes to this sort of thing. And I think we're seeing some of that here. We'll hopefully get some more information from Dr. Wolfson later on.

KAGAN: Stay put. We'll work on getting Dr. Wolfson back.

Meanwhile, let's go to the phones. Our David Mattingly on the phone from Tampa.

David, what do you have?

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Darrell, I've just been speaking with John Centonze who is the brother of Jody Centonze, the girlfriend and mother of the children with Michael Schiavo. They've been very close -- in very close contact with Michael Schiavo. They tell me that he was in the room at the time that Terri Schiavo passed.

Michael Schiavo has almost not left the hospice at all since the feeding tube was removed. They tell he has only left hospice occasionally to be in touch with his lawyer, but otherwise he's been at the hospice the entire time since the feeding tube was removed.

We were here with the -- with John Centonze when that phone call came in. He himself became very emotional. He said that his sister was very upset. The family all grieving very deeply right now, even though this is something that had been expected for quite some time.

They say that they've been through a lot. They say that they've received threats in recent days. And that the family has been very tired. He said the last time he saw Michael Schiavo he said -- earlier this week, he said he looked very tired. He looked terrible. He had not been getting much sleep. But again, he'd been spending almost every minute of the day and night at the hospice. And that he was in the room at the time that Terri passed.

KAGAN: And the Schiavo family has been a lot less public than the Schindler family in recent days. Michael Schiavo has been -- we've heard reports, has been at the hospice. But has been using not a public entrance, whereas we see the Schindler family go through the front door, and through the crowds, and in front of the cameras.

MATTINGLY: That's right. It's been a very stark contrast between the ways these two families have deciding to spend the last days of Terri Schiavo. The Schiavo family deciding that they were going to keep this as something very private, not do any interview, stay out of the camera range as much as possible.

Terri Schiavo's family was able to go in and visit her upon request. They were making sure that they were not in the room at the same time that Michael Schiavo had been. And as far as John Centonze knows, he says the family was not denied when they wanted to go in these past few days. So again, two families choosing to handle these days -- these last days of Terri Schiavo very differently.

We are told that at the time word came down, that Jody Centonze was taking her oldest child to school and was going to be going to school herself. Michael Schiavo's brother was actually at the family house with their younger child. The couple has two children together. And when word came down, the family -- phone calls went out very quickly. And we were here actually when John Centonze received his phone call.

This is a man -- the Centonze family never knew act -- never Terri Schiavo before her heart attack. But they say they've come to know her very closely through the stories that Michael has told. And they are all very upset and grieving as they lost someone that they feel they actually knew very well.

KAGAN: Our David Mattingly on the phone from Tampa.

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