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Reaction to Third in Series of Bush Iraq Speeches; U.N. Probe Continues Investigation of Hariri Assassination; Time Running Out on Tookie Williams' Clemency Plea

Aired December 12, 2005 - 12:13   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We've been listening into George Bush as he's on stage for at least an hour in Philadelphia before the World Affairs Council. This, the same week as Iraq will be having parliamentary elections, President Bush focusing on the political side of the fight in Iraq.
The president not only giving a speech, but for the first time in the three speeches we've seen him give, open the floor to questions. And not questions from reporters, but questions from this group of world affairs experts.

Among the points the president making, that -- saying that the United States is helping to build democracy in Iraq. He says that will make Iraqi an ally in the war on terror. It will also provide, he says, more stability in the region, which ultimately he believes will make Americans safer.

I want to welcome back in from Washington John King and Candy Crowley. And Christiane Amanpour is joining us live from Baghdad.

Candy, first to you. This was a surprise for us to see the president, just as we thought he was going to leave the stage, open it up for questions.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It was. And it also makes you wonder why they didn't do it before. In fact, that, to me, was the strongest part of the whole hour-plus, is when he did that.

I just want to point out the thing that I think will -- will bubble up here of all the hour-plus words is, "Knowing what I know today, I'd do the same thing again." We have seen over the past several months people saying, well, knowing now what the intelligence says, I would have voted differently, I would have done this.

This may be classic George Bush, but it's an important statement given how much time has passed, "Knowing what I know today, I'll do the same thing again."

KAGAN: Christiane to you, a couple points that the president was making, focusing on the situation in Iraq, saying that this is a battle to make Iraq nationalistic and not -- and not to have sectarianism take place. Also focusing on the importance of Sunni involvement in this week's elections. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that was the heart of the -- what people here are interested in. Almost as a sort of an afterthought towards end of the speech, the president said that he doesn't believe the fears, which are not just in this country, but around the whole region, the fears of civil war are justified, he said. But that is precisely what the people of Iraq, many of them, fear, which is why there is this real sort of concern about the election and the whole democratic process.

Because, as the president mentioned, for instance, the referendum, that was voted on, the constitution in October, many people believe that while this constitution, while it has exceptionally great passages in it, also potentially sews the seeds for further disintegration, because it does explicitly give the right of autonomy to the Kurds and potentially other groups, which make the Sunnis, who are the minority in the more impoverished part of this country, feel very, very nervous.

He also said that what Iraqis do not want is to live under an Iran-style theocratic government. And this is precisely what they fear because the majority Shiites have won, they have the biggest bulk in the parliament right now. We don't know what's going to happen on Thursday, but right now, they are very concerned, the Sunnis, for instance, that this is simply sort of a rule of the majority with actually no concern for the minority. And these issues of prisoner abuse, torture chambers and other such simply go to reinforce those fears.

Why do we dwell so much on the rights and feelings of the Sunnis? Because they are the ones whose disaffection fuels this insurgency.

If the insurgency doesn't get under control, then either Iraq won't be all right in the future and the U.S. will find it harder to leave. So there are some very, very important issues here that could go either way. And the biggest one really is whether Iraq will be preserved as a natural, pluralistic, unified whole, or whether the best that can be hoped for is some kind of loose federation, and the worst, a violent disintegration.

And all of this is at stake at these elections on Thursday. And depending on who wins, what kind of coalitions are cobbled together, and most especially, whether it is secular or nationalist, in other words -- sorry, secular or sectarian. And this is going to be what everybody is going to be watching for.

KAGAN: Christiane, thank you.

Now to John King back in Washington, D.C.

Christiane was mentioning this a little bit, how the president mentioned Iran and Syria, these two countries specifically and the trouble they might cause. Also talking about the region in general.

What do you make of those comments from the president?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think the overall theme of the president here, as Candy noted him saying, "I would do it again," is that we're making some adjustments, some things have not gone as planned. The president didn't use the word, but clearly mistakes have been made along the way, but I'm not changing the big picture.

The picture, the president says, is Iraq is a down payment on democracy. He says other governments in the region will ultimately have to change.

Now, of course he would like the governments of Iran and Syria to change. And what the president was saying in that speech was, we're watching, we know you're trying to meddle in the elections, in the case of Iran, we know you're letting insurgents come back across the border, in the case of Syria.

The president is saying, we're watching, to make sure those governments know that. I think they knew that before the president's speech. They didn't need that speech.

But clearly, the president is still trying to stick to that broader vision he outlined in his inaugural address almost a year ago, 11 months ago, where he said the overriding foreign policy goal of his second term would be spreading democracy around the world, especially and beginning in the Middle East. The setbacks in Iraq have delayed that agenda, many would say knocked it off the table. The president trying to say, it's still on my mind, but first, let's get -- try to get Iraq right.

KAGAN: John King, Candy Crowley, Christiane Amanpour, thank you, to all three of you.

We're going to expand our discussion to others when we come back after this break, including talking to a soldier's wife and also the mother of a son, a mother who lost a son in the war in Iraq.

Our discussion continues after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: For more reaction to President Bush's speech, we turn now to an American soldier in Baghdad, Captain Ryan Avila.

We are also joined by Meredith Leyva. Her husband serves in the Navy, and she's the author of the book "Married to the Military." She joins us from Pensacola, where her husband is currently stationed.

Also, Sue Niederer is with us from Philadelphia this morning. Her son was killed in action in Iraq last year.

And national political writer, Dick Polman also joins us. And he is in Philadelphia.

Captain, let's go to you first in Baghdad. We heard the president talk today in this speech and in previous speeches about the challenge the U.S. military faces, not just from insurgents, but in getting the Iraq army up to speed and able -- being able to defend Iraq all by itself.

CAPT. RYAN AVILA, BRIGADE PUBLIC AFFAIRS OPERATIONS OFFICER: OK. You're going to have to repeat that. You sounded pretty -- pretty broken.

KAGAN: Hard for -- OK. We'll try again.

We heard the president talk the challenges -- about the challenges the U.S. military faces in Iraq right now, both in facing the insurgency there in Iraq, also in trying to get the Iraq military up to speed in being able to take over and protect their own country.

AVILA: OK. Yes, definitely, I've seen progress here since I've gotten in country. We've been here since January of last year. And you want to talk about the differences and the changes, everyone wants everything now. But over the past year, it's been pretty significant.

We talk about the number of attacks that have occurred then, as opposed to now, and they've gone significantly down. Route Irish, what everybody knows about Airport Road, specifically, is a lot safer.

For the first six months that I was here, I did convoy escort for the State Department. And I was on that route probably about two or three times a week. And in those six months, I was never hit on that route. And the number of attacks specifically on that route have gone significantly down since I've been here.

So, again, that's progress.

Again, you talk about the last four months that I've worked with the brigade -- Public Affairs Office here for the 4th Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division, and there have been a number of projects and missions that have gone on here that have really helped out the Iraqi people as a whole here. And it's really heartening to see and kind of disheartening to see the lack of coverage on a lot of local media or media stations around the world when the tragic events get most of the coverage.

KAGAN: Captain, thank you.

Well, one of the tragic events Sue Niederer certainly knows about. She lost her son as he was serving in Iraq.

Sue, let's bring you in here. The president talked about sacrifice and putting lives on the line, saying that ultimately the U.S. military is doing this because it will make Iraq succeed, but ultimately will make America a safer place.

What's your reaction to that?

SUE NIEDERER, LOST SON IN IRAQ: I feel that America as he has stated right now is not safe and will never be safe. I believe that we have invaded a country that is a war based totally upon religion. And a war based on religion will never be won by this country.

I feel that he's sacrificing lives for the sake of being -- supposedly putting our democracy upon another country. This is not something that we need to do. Every country wants their own type of democracy.

Going in and toppling Saddam Hussein was the proper thing to do. I agree with that. But at this point, give the Iraqi country back to the Iraqis, allow them to rebuild their own country. But bring our troops home now as quickly as possible.

And I mean very, very quickly, because we're not going to have the troops trained in any foreseeable future. And there is no exit strategy.

So at this point, it's time to take and say, let us cut our losses, bring our troops home, and make sure that they're taken care of when they come home. And the families of the fallen, most importantly, to be taken care of when they come home.

KAGAN: Another point from another military family.

Meredith Leyva, let's bring you in.

Ms. Leyva, your husband serves in the Navy, not currently overseas in Iraq. But you two understand the sacrifice when you send a loved one into the military.

What did you think of the president's speech?

MEREDITH LEYVA, HUSBAND IS U.S. NAVY LIEUTENANT: I thought it was fantastic. I personally, as the founder of thinkhouse.com (ph), have been appalled by the so-called peace activists' tactics and rhetoric in this whole war.

They are three years and two elections too late. And unfortunately, every time that they call for an immediate pullout from Iraq, they are fueling the insurgents' fire to continue bombing our troops.

If these folks want our troops come home safely, we need to let them finish the job, because they are doing a tremendous job. And they need to talk about this debate in the context of domestic politics. But if they want our troops to be safe, they need -- they need to stop the calls for an immediate pullout.

That is the dream of ever insurgent terrorist. They want to us pull out, because if we pulled out now, Iraq would fall into chaos and civil war, and we'd have a whole new base of terrorism in the Middle East.

KAGAN: I'm going to go to Dick Polman in just a minute.

But first, Captain Avila, back to you in Baghdad.

How does this debate play out there among the troops that you're familiar with about whether to come home right away or the need to stay? AVILA: That's great that you asked that. Actually, a few months ago we went down south to another forward operating base and conducted some hometown interviews with some soldiers down there. And there was a specific soldier, Specialist Capo (ph), from Colorado Springs, Colorado.

And when his hometown station asked him that very question -- you know, he's a young soldier, probably about 18, 19 years old -- his answer was, "It hurts me. It hurts me when I hear people say that, because we work so hard, we've done so much to get this far. And to just leave now would be -- the unfortunate soldiers that we've lost and all the work we've done would be for nothing."

So these soldiers here are proud of what they've done. And they know that at the end of a rotation, they're going to leave. But that aside, as far as leaving now, bringing troops home, that's -- that's one of the last things they want to -- they want to hear and they want to see.

KAGAN: I need to get another perspective.

Sue Niederer, I want to bring you back in here, because certainly I would think when you make your comments about bringing the troops home now, your intention is not to hurt the troops or express any kind of lack of support for them. So how do you respond to those that say, when you say, bring the troops home right now, you're actually helping the insurgents?

NIEDERER: I think that is a very unintelligent comment. What are in total support of the troops. What we feel is very simple. It is time to bring them home and bring them home safely.

What is the noble cause? What is the mission accomplished?

We feel that the troops right now -- and the gentleman who's speaking, you have been indoctrinated, OK? I call it Psychology 101 or brainwashing.

What do you expect the troops actually to say, especially when they know that they are going on TV? Do you really feel that they're going to talk against their president? I do not think that this is going to happen.

KAGAN: Well, our intention here today is just to give a variety of views.

I want to go ahead and bring in Dick Polman.

And Dick, a columnist for "The Philadelphia Inquirer," talk a little bit about the place that President Bush chose to make this third of four speeches today. He made a lot of the role that Philadelphia played in the development U.S. Constitution. But Pennsylvania, as a whole, this is a state that was divided right down the middle. Senator Kerry ended up winning in the 2004 election, but just by two percentage points.

So it, in many ways, represented -- representative of a divided country, as well, when it comes to the war.

POLMAN: Yes, he was trying very much to bring in the heritage of Philadelphia as the founding place for democracy. But I think one of the things that he has -- one of the challenges that he's got, really, around here in Pennsylvania at large is that his support among Pennsylvanians has dropped considerably, even since the last election.

Because basically, you know, he got a credibility problem that he's been trying to overcome. And he doesn't own the shorthand anymore. The shorthand basically is -- you know, the administration said it was going to be a pretty a quick war. I think Donald Rumsfeld said six days, six weeks, I doubt six months. Number one.

Number two, he said there was going to be weapons of mass destruction and there weren't. And Vice President Cheney said the insurgency was in its last throes, and it doesn't appear to be.

KAGAN: But as a political writer, Dick, with all that information, were you interested to hear President Bush say knowing everything that I know today, I would do the same thing again?

POLMAN: Well, yes. I mean, I think one of the things that people are looking for are -- they're looking for an acknowledgement, I guess, that some of the things went wrong. And he did say that adjustments were being made, that they have made adjustments. But the fact that he basically, at the very -- you know, he still comes out in the same place where he was, particularly since that was in response to a question about what about this alleged link between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein.

He didn't really answer that question. It was great he took the question. He didn't really answer the question because the 9/11 Commission said there was no collaborative relationship between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein. So, you know -- and he answered that basically in the end by saying, still, by what I know now, I would still do the same thing. I'm not so sure that's necessarily going to help skeptical Pennsylvanians get over the credibility hump.

KAGAN: We will be watching. Captain Ryan Avila, Dick Polman, Meredith Leyva and Sue Niederer, thank you. Many different opinions and it was great to take our discussion beyond the usual analysts that we talk to. So thank you for your time and listening to the president's speech with us today.

When we come back, we're going to continue that discussion. We're going to visit a restaurant in Chicago where opinions about the war in Iraq are mixed. We're back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Through hard- working compromise, Iraqis adopted the most progressive democratic constitution in the Arab world. On Thursday, Iraq...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Those were comments from President Bush as he spoke in Philadelphia in the last hour. We'll have more on the president's speech in just a moment.

I'm Daryn Kagan. Here now, a look at what's happening "Now in the News."

And on the topic of Iraq, early voting is underway there. Hospital patients, soldiers and prisoners who have not been convicted of anything. -- and that includes Saddam Hussein, if he wants to -- are casting ballots for a 275-seat national assembly. Election day for the rest of the country is on Thursday.

Meanwhile, more signs of prisoner abuse in Iraq. The prime minister's office says 13 prisoners who were possibly abused were discovered at an overcrowded detention center run by the interior ministry. Last month, U.S. troops said they discovered a different interior ministry compound housing dozens of prisoners, some of whom showed signs of abuse.

It's a race against time for gang-founder and convicted killer Stanley Tookie Williams. California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and a federal appeals court are considering an affidavit from a new witness who says Williams was framed. That move comes after California Supreme Court rejected Williams' request for an emergency stay. He's scheduled for an execution just after midnight.

In Michigan, an early morning fire at a nursing home leaves two people dead. A hospital spokesman says the victims died of smoke inhalation. More than 60 others were treated at local hospitals. No word yet on what caused that fire.

In New Orleans, a new move in the investigation into Hurricane Katrina flooding. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is removing samples of floodwall material near the 17th Street Canal where the levee breach took place.

And taking a look at what's happening on Wall Street on this hour, you can see the Dow not having the best of Mondays. It is down 14 points. The market's been open over three hours. The Nasdaq, barely moving at all. It is up just over a point.

Today's speech about Iraq by President Bush is part of a campaign to counter growing criticism and sagging support for the U.S. mission.

Our Keith Oppenheim is at Lou Mitchell's restaurant in downtown Chicago with more public opinion about Iraq. Keith, hello.

KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Daryn. And the lunch crowd is starting to file in while folks here are still finishing up their breakfast. What better opportunity to talk to folks about politics.

And I'm going to introduce you to one of the wait staff here. This is Alexandra Becker (ph). And Alex, we were talking before we were going on here. The president is trying to convince folks that the war is important to stick with and that there is a great democracy at stake here. Is his speech today -- I know you didn't hear it -- but the ideas of that, is that resonating with you at all?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, not at all.

OPPENHEIM: Why not?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because I think we're forcing those people in Iran to take our customs into their life and I don't think that they want to do that. I don't they want to have our democracy or our customs.

OPPENHEIM: And his point in Iraq was that it's not imposition, that the desire for democracy is universal. But you still see this as imposition?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I do. I do. I think they should choose what they want to do in their country like we have a choice here.

OPPENHEIM: OK, Alex, I'm going to talk to some of the other customers. Thanks for a moment here. And as I was indicating there, Daryn, there were a number of people here who were eating, they didn't hear the speech that we've just been listening to. But the opinions, as you'll hear, are pretty formed by political events ahead of time.

And I'm going to introduce you to -- hi, this is Margo and Keiss Riphagen (ph), good Dutch names. I was talking to you before, as well. Keis, the president's pitch, which is what he's trying to do here to get folks to see that this is a war worth sticking with. Is that getting to you at all? Are you beginning to see that there is something worth accomplishing in Iraq?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, he and all of Washington certainly has done a heck of a sales job, not only now, but certainly in the recent past by selling the war to us. Do I agree with that? Definitely not.

OPPENHEIM: Did you ever at any point?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I did not. He's never been able -- or Washington never has been able to sell it to me. And I don't think he will this time.

OPPENHEIM: Let me talk to your daughter, Margo. Margo, you know, one of the things that the president was saying was that, as it was the case a couple hundred years ago in Philadelphia, the experiment in American democracy did not come easily. Should we be more patient, or at least can you sort of see that perspective?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I mean, of course I agree that democracy does not come easily. But, as was the case in America, the people should decide when and if they want a democracy. It should not be imposed by an outside party, and I think that's what I feel is the case in Iraq. I feel that America has stepped in and decided for the Iraqis that democracy is the best way to go. OPPENHEIM: What do you say, though, to the fact that there are parliamentary elections in the process of taking place. Isn't that a sign of some progress?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I agree that it is a sign of some progress, but I still feel that it's largely imposed by the Americans, and that Iraqis do not have enough of a say in what's going on, that it's still a puppet government put in place by America.

OPPENHEIM: So if we're to stay there, what are the consequences of sticking it out, in your view?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe that if we stay in Iraq, that it's going to become Bush's project. It's going to become just what Bush wants and what America wants it to be, largely for oil, for America, as opposed to, you know, a democracy that could work for the Iraqi people, bringing, you know, women's rights and more rights to the Iraqi people.

OPPENHEIM: Do you see there may be some elements of society there that sees this as progress, of Iraqi society?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right, some Iraqis who see it as progress. I believe that there -- of course, I can't speak for all the people there, but I believe some do see it as progress. But from my view, not nearly enough.

OPPENHEIM: OK, thanks very much to the Riphagens, and I hope you had a good breakfast.

And just to point out before we go here, Daryn, that, you know, Illinois is generally a Democratic-leaning state, and Chicago is a stronghold of it. So it's not so easy to find people who are Bush supporters in downtown Chicago on any given day.

But having said that, I think the reaction that's you're hearing here are some indication that this is a tough sell for the Bush administration, to get people to see that this is a long fight worth fighting.

Daryn, back to you.

KAGAN: All right, Keith Oppenheim, live in downtown Chicago. Thanks you.

And stay with CNN for the latest on Iraq. Our Anderson Cooper is reporting from Iraq every night this week, and taking an in-depth look at whether has reached a turning point.

That's on "ANDERSON COOPER 360," beginning at 10:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

We're back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KAGAN: Live pictures we're watching from New York City. This is the 72nd Pier. And we're looking at the Hudson River. When we get a closer look at the end -- well, and we're at the mercy of our affiliate, OK, WABC.

Now we're looking tape from just minutes ago. Rescuers on the scene. Reports of a car going through the guard railing and into the Hudson River. Rescuers on the scene unclear at this time if there was anyone in the car, if they got out. We believe the car at this time the car is underwater. Those rescue efforts going under way right now in New York City.

We'll continue to follow developments in that story.

I want to say that we've preempted most of CNN International this hour, as we've had coverage and discussion of President Bush's speech on Iraq from Philadelphia.

But right now, we're going to go ahead and rejoin our coverage with our colleagues, CNN international.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: ... people have died, two million displaced in the Darfur conflict. A Sudanese senior foreign ministry official calls the Human Rights Watch report baseless, in his words, and dependent on the propaganda of rebel groups.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Nigeria's president is vowing to improve air safety after the country's second commercial plane crash in less than two months. The death toll rose to 107 in Saturday's crash after four of seven survivors died. Officials says the plane's flight recorders have been recovered.

Jeff Koinange has the latest now from Port Harcourt.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF KOINANGE, CNN AFRICA CORRESPONDENT: Port Harcourt's normally busy international airport was deserted a day after Sosoliso Airlines flight 1145 crash-landed, killing nearly all 110 passengers on landing. Most were high school students studying at this school, the Loyola Jesuit College in the nation's capital of Abuja. They ranged in age from 10 to 18 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very, very, sad. I feel very, very annoyed. I feel very, very (INAUDIBLE). (INAUDIBLE). These are kids that have worked very hard, stayed in school, looking forward to going home.

KOINANGE: Rescue crews worked tirelessly into a second day, bagging and tagging bodies and body parts. While anxious relatives crowded around the airline's passenger manifest for missing loved ones.

At one of the city's several morgues, grief-stricken family members and friends awaited the worst possible news, many of them parents of the high-schoolers.

Late in the day, search-and-rescue efforts were called off. Even Red Cross officials were left struggling understanding to understand the tragedy of Nigeria's second airline disaster in as many months.

NAPOLEON HEZEKIAH, NIGERIAN RED CROSS: Maybe it is the will of God that it's happened like this. It's a very, very (INAUDIBLE) for a family to lose three, four loved ones right at the same time, and it's a very, very touching incident.

KOINANGE (on camera): All the victims of Sosoliso flight 1145 which lies about half a mile from where I'm standing right now, have been recovered, and the grim task of identifying the dead has already begun.

The even-tougher task of finding out exactly what happened to the ill-fated aircraft begins in earnest in the coming day, although the finally answer won't be know for sometime to come.

Jeff Koinange, CNN, Port Harcourt, Nigeria.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Continuing on with our coverage of international news now, we welcome our viewers here in the United States.

Let's go the U.N. Liz Neisloss is there with more on the report of Detlev Mehlis into the assassination of the former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri -- Liz.

LIZ NEISLOSS, CNN SR. U.N. PRODUCER: Well, just a little bit more time to go through this report.

Again, I want to remind viewers that the report has basically, in essence, continued an earlier finding from Detlev Mehlis, the U.N. investigator, which says that it still believes that top-level Syrian and Lebanese intelligence officials were behind the assassination of Rafik Hariri. That has not changed. Some information now in this report about the questioning of suspects. Five suspects were taken by Detlev Mehlis to a questioning in Vienna. It was an agreed site. The report says that the five officials, Syrian officials, who were interviewed were considered suspect. They were interviewed that way. The interviewees signed their statements. They gave DNA samples.

But two of the suspects told investigators that all Syrian intelligence documents relating to Lebanon had been burned. And the investigators also seemed to find other means of backing up these statement, saying that no material regarding the assassination of Mr. Hariri has been found in Syrian intelligence archives -- Michael.

HOLMES: Is there a sense -- I know you're not a lawyer -- that there's hard evidence in this? A lot of people are saying it's a lot of stories, a lot of he said, she said. But not a lot what we would call hard evidence?

NEISLOSS: Well, it's stories. These are sworn statements that are taken. They are affidavits. So it's all groundwork for material that will have to be raised in court.

What the lead investigator Detlev Mehlis said when, for example, a recent witness came out and recanted testimony, saying he had been bribed and drugged, Mehlis' position is, look, I've heard this propaganda before in Germany for many years. There was communist propaganda and this is all going to be decided in court.

Very interestingly, also, the witness I referred to who did recant his testimony, the investigator says, no, we still believe he was telling the truth when he told us very interesting tales about Syrian official's involvement. We also believe we have evidence that family members of this individual were threatened prior to his taking back his testimony. Michael.

HOLMES: All right. Liz we'll let you keep reading. Liz Neisloss there at the UN.

VERJEE: Up next, does he deserve clemency after dissuading countless of young people from joining gangs?

HOLMES: Or does he deserve to die for committing murder? Questions continue to surround the fate of Stanley "Tookie" Williams, and time is running out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOMES: Welcome back, everyone. California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is the last hope of former gang leader Stanley "Tookie" Williams.

The California Supreme Court rejected a late appeal to reopen the case of the convicted murderer, leaving his fate in the governor's hands. Williams is slated to be executed just after midnight. Kareen Wynter has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAREEN WYNTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): An unexpected announcement late Sunday, not from the governor's office, but instead from "Tookie" Williams' confidant, Barbara Becnel and the ACLU.

In a conference call to reporters, they said evidence was just presented to Governor Arnold SCHWARZENEGGER: that could spare Williams' life. Hours after last Thursday's clemency hearing, Becnel says a former prison cell mate of William came forward, claiming he has proof that the former Crips leader was framed.

According to the Becnel, evidence given by another cell mate, one of the key prosecution witnesses, was tainted and that the witness was allegedly coached by the law enforcement. This testimony helped convict Williams.

CNN has called the governor's office and prosecutor's office to get comment on these allegation. So far, no one has gotten back to us. Political Analyst Earl Ofari Hutchinson spoke with Williams by phone in a recent prison interview, offering a rare look inside the mind of a condemned killer.

STANELY "TOOKIE" WILLIAMS, CONVICTED GANG LEADER (voice over): I believe redemption is tailor made for the wretched. And therefore, I have redeemed myself. I am a redeemed man and I believe that they should not hold my past against me. I believe they should look and delve into what I am doing today.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON, POLITICAL ANALYST: I didn't sense any fear. So the impression I got was this guy is either the greatest conman in the world or he really is at peace with himself.

WYNTER: Williams could be in the final hours of his life. The step mother of one of Williams' victims says she wants to be there when he takes his last breath.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: I will be standing there in the name of Albert and his father, watching that execution.

WYNTER (on camera): No time line on when, or if, the governor will make a decision today on this clemency request.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: All right. Thank you very much.

VERJEE: You've been watching YOUR WORLD TODAY. I'm Zain Verjee

HOLMES: And I'm Michael Holmes. Thanks for watching.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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