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Pennsylvania Court Rules Against Intelligent Design; Hussein's Escape Plan

Aired December 20, 2005 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: A White House official says the vice president is returning to Washington in case his tie-breaking vote is needed for key Senate legislation. Before leaving Pakistan today, he viewed some of the devastation from October's massive earthquake.
A man accused of posing as a New York City firefighter and sexually assaulting a woman is expected to appear in a New York court today. Peter Braunstein faces charges of sexual abuse, kidnapping and burglary. Authorities say Braunstein assaulted a woman in her apartment on Halloween. Police caught up with him in Tennessee last week after six weeks on the run.

And we are standing by for Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff. He is scheduled to speak any minute now and you can see he's on the verge of being introduced. Chertoff is expected to talk about his department's performance in what was a challenging year, especially with the hurricanes. And he will lay out goals for the next year.

While we are standing by for Secretary Chertoff to begin speaking, let's get another take on how homeland security officials are doing and bring in CNN security analyst Clark Kent Ervin, former DHS inspector general. And he's joining me now from Houston.

Clark, good morning.

CLARK KENT ERVIN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Good morning, Daryn.

KAGAN: Might have to cut you off in case Michael Chertoff begins to speak, but meanwhile, give me a report card on how you think the department did for the year.

ERVIN: Well, it's been a difficult year for the department, Daryn. This is the first year for Secretary Chertoff. He made a major speech in July, which he laid out goals for the department. But his first major test, of course, came in September with Katrina. And we all know that that was not a very good performance for the department. So it will be very interesting to see what the secretary says. There are lots of challenges ahead. Progress is being made, but there's a lot more progress to be made.

KAGAN: Some political challenges, as well, as we watch the battle over the Patriot Act come to a head in the Senate.

ERVIN: That's right. And the Patriot Act obviously is front and center with regard to the nexus between security on the one hand and civil liberties on the other. It's very, very important to reconcile the two. As we get farther and farther away from 9/11, concerns for civil rights and civil liberties increase. Were there be another attack, there would be more emphasis on security. The question is whether the two can be reconciled in the absence of a terrorist attack, and that's what this debate in the Senate is all about.

KAGAN: Yes, and you know, another big story that's in the news, this NSC spy scandal where they're talking about President Bush authorizing a program where the NSC was able to eavesdrop on conversations between suspected terrorists here at home and overseas. It brings to mind what you were saying. Everybody wants to be safe and everybody wants civil liberties, but somewhere in there is the debate about how you balance that out.

ERVIN: Exactly. Where is the line to be drawn and who is to draw the line, by the way? The administration takes a very forward- leading position, arguing that the president's inherent powers as commander-in-chief give him the authority to draw that line.

And, of course, there are others on the other side who say that independent branches of government -- the Congress, the courts -- should play that role. So it's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out over the course of the next few months.

KAGAN: And getting back to your original point about how the big test for this department during Katrina and the aftermath -- when you think homeland security, before Katrina, we were thinking things like terrorist attacks. But this natural disaster was a whole other situation and it also was kind of a dry run -- not dry run, but it was a run-through of what a community might face in case of a terrorist attack and it wasn't very impressive with how all the agencies worked together.

ERVIN: That's exactly right. You know, had terrorists targeted those levees in New Orleans, the impact would have been essentially the same, the same number of people killed. There, again, wouldn't have prepositioned supplies of food and medical supplies. There, again, wouldn't have been an evacuation plan.

So it's very important that the department and the rest of the applicable members of the federal government learned the appropriate lessons for Katrina and that we're better prepared next time. The bad news is that we had warning of Katrina. We may not have warning the next time there's a terrorist attack or a terrorist plot.

KAGAN: And I think one of the things that was so disappointing for many Americans, a basic of the right hand talking to the left hand. You know, here we are more than four years after 9/11 and you're still seeing agencies can't talk to each other, different forms of government can't talk to each other or refuse to talk with each other. I think that's very disturbing at end of the day for Americans who just want to feel a sense of security.

ERVIN: You're absolutely right, Daryn. You know, the 9/11 Commission, its lobbying campaign went out of business just a few weeks ago. And they highlighted in their final report, among other issues, the fact that we still don't have an interoperable communication system so that different levels of government and different agencies within the same level of government can talk to each other.

And that's inexcusable. In this 21st century information age, we ought to be able to handle that technically. And it's got to be attended to urgently. And perhaps Secretary Chertoff will say something about that this morning.

KAGAN: And we will be listening in. Clark Kent Ervin, thank you for your insight today.

ERVIN: Thanks, Daryn.

KAGAN: And Michael Chertoff not quite yet started, but we will listen in and when he begins to speak, we'll bring you his comments here on CNN. Be sure to stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security.

Other news now. Saddam Hussein's trial resumes tomorrow once again in Baghdad. His lawyers say he will be there as opposed to a hearing two weeks ago that he boycotted after calling the proceedings a sham. The former Iraqi leader is charged with crimes against humanity in connection with the killing of 148 people in the Shiite town in 1982.

Before he was captured, Saddam Hussein apparently had a getaway plan. One of the lawyers told CNN what went wrong and he also gave compelling details about Hussein's life on the run. Our Mary Snow has that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): December 13, 2003, his attorney says Saddam Hussein expected to find a motorcycle when he emerged from an underground hole. Instead, his escape plan went bust, and he was taken into U.S. custody.

PAUL BREMER, U.S. CIVILIAN ADMIN. IN IRAQ: Ladies and gentlemen, we got him.

(APPLAUSE)

SNOW: Saddam Hussein says he believes betrayal did him in. That's according to Ramsey Clark, the former U.S. attorney general, who now represents the ousted Iraqi leader at his trial. He says Hussein believed he would be a fugitive indefinitely.

RAMSEY CLARK, ATTORNEY FOR SADDAM HUSSEIN: He said he had been moving from place to place, to encourage people to resist the occupation. He had been at this particular place several times. He saw soldiers outside. That's when he went into the -- through the trap door into the tunnel.

SNOW: U.S. military officials describe it as a spider hole. According to Clark, Hussein told him he lost consciousness in the hole and believes he was gassed. The details emerged when Clark says he recently asked the former Iraqi leader about his capture during a break at the trial.

SNOW (on camera): Did you ask him how he moved around?

CLARK: I think he moved in different ways. I think he moved on bicycles. I think he moved in groups with -- in a wagon, or he perhaps used taxicabs.

SNOW (voice-over): When U.S. forces captured Hussein, they reported a taxicab was outside his hiding spot.

(on camera): Would he travel alone?

CLARK: Rarely.

SNOW: How many people would travel with him?

CLARK: It would vary. Five or six would be maximum. Probably two or three be more normal.

SNOW: Do you think he's telling you the truth?

CLARK: Yes. No reason why he wouldn't be. Why make up something like that?

SNOW: When asked about Saddam Hussein's claim that he had been gassed, a Pentagon spokesman said it was the first time he had heard such a claim and he doubted it was true. He did, however, say he would look further into it.

Mary Snow, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: And we're following a developing story out of Rome, Italy, now, a train accident involving two passenger trains. Just getting early information here. We're hearing that dozens of people reported injured today. It's described as a serious accident involving two passenger trains and it took place just south of Rome around 3:00 p.m. local time. Firefighters at the scene saying they cannot rule out casualties so we'll keep our eye on that. Two trains collide just south of Rome, Italy.

Also, we are listening in to Michael Chertoff, the homeland defense secretary. He is giving an assessment of his department's year and how it did and where it needs to improve. We'll bring you highlights just ahead.

And we'll also check in on Wall Street. We're going to tell you why Alaska is going after two major oil companies. CNN LIVE TODAY continues just after a break.

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KAGAN: We are standing by. A judge could rule today on whether "intelligent design" can be mentioned in Dover, Pennsylvania classrooms. More on the case when we come back.

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KAGAN: This just in to CNN out of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. A federal judge has ruled that intelligent design cannot, cannot be mentioned in biology classes in a Pennsylvania public school district.

Background on this, a school board there had decided that intelligent design should be taught, and the idea of intelligent design being that it's a theory that life on Earth was produced by an unidentified intelligent cause. The school board policy was believed to be the first of its kind in the nation and a lot of other school boards watching what was happening at this Dover area school board.

The federal judge here, District Judge John E. Jones III ruling that the Dover Area School Board violated the constitution when it ordered that its biology curriculum must include intelligent design.

Let's get more on the legal ramifications of this and welcome in our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. Jeff, hello.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Daryn.

KAGAN: Well, as I mentioned, this spreads a lot bigger than just this one school district in Pennsylvania. There are school districts all around the country watching at what this judge decided.

TOOBIN: Absolutely. This is a major, major decision. Because the people, the forces, the political and religious forces who fought to get creationism -- the biblical theory of creation -- taught in schools, the Supreme Court rejected that in 1987. And they have been reworking creationism to have a more scientific bent, to be less specifically religiously-oriented.

But Judge Jones ruled that this was really just creationism in another garb. And he rejected it in this school district. And, you're right that this is only applied to this specific school districts and other school districts may try it. But certainly this will a very important precedent that other judges will look to in deciding whether intelligent design may be tried elsewhere in the country.

KAGAN: Jeff, I want to get back to the legal and political ramifications for just a minute. First I want to welcome in Delia Gallagher, our religion correspondent, joining us from New York City.

Delia, this is a conversation that has taken place all across the country and actually has roots back to the 1920s to the Scopes trial, when the battle was to be able to teach evolution in this country.

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN RELIGION CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Daryn. And, of course, the particular question there in Dover was about intelligent design, which is this kind of new idea that we have coming in modern times. Sort of creationism some say, veiled creationism. The idea that there is a supernatural connection and design.

Now the problem in Dover, if you'll remember, was that at Dover High School, the school board had wanted this sort of four-paragraph statement to be read to ninth grade biology classes. And part of this statement said that because Darwin's theory is a theory, it continues to be tested as new evidence is discovered. The theory is not a fact. With respect to any theories, students are required to keep an open mind.

And this was last year when the school district said that this should be read in ninth grade biology classes. The statement went on to sort of point students to a reference book in the Dover high school, which was called "Of Pandas and People," which further explained intelligent design.

So, obviously, this got the attention of some parents of this high school who then, represented by the ACLU and the Americans United for Separation of Church and State, brought this case in December of last year. And we now have the judgment, which as Jeffrey Toobin rightly mentioned, is extremely important as a sort of precedent.

You know, other school boards are dealing with this and will be looking. Although this is the first time that it's arrived at the courts, it's certainly a very important precedent for other schools around the country.

KAGAN: And, of course, we should stress that we're talking about public schools here. That in a private schools would be a different situation of people deciding what kind of curriculum they want their children to be taught.

Jeffrey, this goes even bigger here, because this will come into the debate about -- this was a school board, an elected school board that made a decision to insert this and now here comes a judge changing that decision. This would, I would imagine, add to the debate of courts versus elected officials making law.

TOOBIN: Absolutely. And this has been going on around the country. Kansas had a very celebrated in its board of education, where the newly-elected people are attempting to get intelligent design or a similar kind of theory taught to students. It came up in Georgia as well.

When you talk about the politics, there is a very interesting situation that happened in Dover itself. The school board that put forward intelligent design, the more conservative school board, if you will, was voted out en masse last December by a group of educators and parents who said this was too much of a distraction, the kids should get back to studying just plain science. So what I think this means is that this ruling will probably not be appealed, that the current school board wants to be done with the whole controversy, to go back to teaching ordinary science. And as the politics of this get sorted out, that's going to be one view you may hear, as well as of the people who believe that God and creation science and alternatives to evolution have been unfairly excluded from public classrooms.

KAGAN: So in some ways, this school board really wasn't waiting for this decision with baited breath, because, as you said, they've been swapped out by the members who are probably going to take this school district in a different direction. But on a bigger picture, school boards all around the country waiting to hear what this judge had to say.

TOOBIN: Including President Bush. And President Bush last year said very clearly that he thinks there should be alternatives to evolution taught, that he thinks as many of the supporters of intelligent design say you should teach the controversy. But those people suffered a real blow in the courtroom.

And interestingly, the judge in this case, Judge Jones, was an appointee of this President Bush in 2002. So the argument to this was some out-of-control liberal judge is going to be a little harder to make, given the fact that he was appointed by President Bush.

KAGAN: Jeffrey Toobin, thank you. Delia Gallagher, thank you for that, as well.

Once again, the breaking news out of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. A federal judge there, Judge John E. Jones III , ruling that the intelligent design, the theory that another force, an unexplained force, created life here on Earth and it was produced by an unidentified intelligent cause -- that theory cannot be taught in this school district, the Pennsylvania public school district which instituted it. And they will have to take it out of their high school biology classes.

Much more on this topic, other news as well. And we're back after this break.

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