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CNN Live Today
Tense Demonstration in Gaza City in Elections Aftermath; Lethal Injection Issue Heads to Supreme Court
Aired January 27, 2006 - 10:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: This just in to CNN. We continue to follow the situation in Gaza City. A lot of upset people in the wake of the Palestinian elections earlier this week.
This is the live picture that we're looking at. This is in front of the president's house, Mahmoud Abbas.
Our Ben Wedeman is there as well, tells us about the demonstrators and gunfire -- Ben.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Daryn, right now I'm at the Palestinian Legislative Council, where there are at least a thousand Fatah supporters here, many of them armed, many of them firing in the air. They're very angry at the results of the Palestinian elections.
They want to see the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to resign. They blame him, largely, him and the old generation of Palestinian leaders, for not providing the leadership that allowed Fatah to win these elections, and rather allowing Hamas to run a campaign and to win in what is considered to be a (INAUDIBLE) election.
So clearly tense here. There are people here trying to -- using (INAUDIBLE) to try to break into the -- trying to break into the building itself, which is surrounded -- at least the doors are surrounded by Palestinian policemen, (INAUDIBLE), I must say, to keep the situation under control.
KAGAN: So Ben, they're not just demonstrating outside? They're trying to break into house, to the residence?
WEDEMAN: No, no, this is not the president's house. This is the legislative council, the local -- the parliament. They've moved from the president's house to the legislative council, which is less than a mile away from the president's house. Now, you can hear the shooting in the air. They're making (INAUDIBLE), a very unruly crowd.
And this has been difficult. Fatah supporters in recent years, they're probably the most unruly group here in Gaza.
KAGAN: Now, you told us earlier that the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, is not there.
WEDEMAN: That is correct. It's my understanding he's in Ramallah. He was scheduled to come here either tomorrow or the next day to speak with Hamas leaders about the formation of the new government, but given the volatile situation here and the anger of his fellow Fatah members, that trip may have to be postponed.
KAGAN: Tell us more. We're looking at these live pictures, and it looks like men are actually scaling the building, the side of the building, trying to get in.
WEDEMAN: Yes, they can't get in the structure because it's blocked by police. So what they're doing is they're climbing up. And if you can hear some banging in the background just a second ago, that's people trying to break into other doors.
I have to tell you, this is not the first time I've seen this sort of scene. On other occasions, they have converged on the legislative council to try to essentially do the same thing. This building has been a magnet for (INAUDIBLE) like this.
KAGAN: And you said there is security there, but it's just blocking the doors? It's not able to move the crowd back?
WEDEMAN: Not at all. I can see some (INAUDIBLE), they are trying to tell people to move back, but they don't seem to be having an awful lot of luck. And (INAUDIBLE) in another area where they're trying to break through another gate. So very chaotic, and Palestinian police are relatively outnumbered, at least 100-1.
So I don't know how much longer they'll be able to keep the situation under control. If you can even describe it at that -- as that.
KAGAN: You have this worked-up, frenzied crowd, a number of guns, people firing bullets into the air. That seems like a really bad combination.
WEDEMAN: It is a bad combination, and this has really been one of the reasons Hamas has done well. Its opinion is that Fatah was never able to control its own people, its own people, many of whom are armed with automatic weapons who don't really have a chance (INAUDIBLE) much respect for public order.
KAGAN: And for our American audience, explain exactly what this crowd is upset about.
WEDEMAN: They're upset that -- they feel that the leadership of their movement, Fatah, failed them, was unable to lead an effective campaign, has been corrupt over the years. It's been unable to live up to the promises they made. And therefore, when the Palestinian people were given the opportunity to vote, they voted against Fatah to punish it for its (INAUDIBLE).
(INAUDIBLE) their rulers failed them, their leaders failed them. So now they want them punished.
KAGAN: And many who think that these elections should have never taken place in the first place?
WEDEMAN: OK. Yes, Daryn. I did speak to some of the people here who said exactly that.
They said it was a mistake that Hamas (INAUDIBLE). And it's typical of the ruling party in many countries. They simply feel that no one has the right to rule but them.
And therefore, they say the elections shouldn't have taken place. Some of the people here claimed the elections were rigged.
Having covered them, I must say they were the cleanest Arab elections I've ever seen. So I don't really consider that a fair accusation. But they feel cheated, they feel let down, and they're angry. They want their leaders to resign; those who are corrupt they want punished.
KAGAN: And there's still a threat of actually losing hundreds of millions of dollars in international funding. So what's already a difficult existence could get even more difficult for the Palestinians.
WEDEMAN: Yes, it could be. And we've heard the European Union and the United States say that they are not necessarily prepared to provide financial assistance to the Palestinian Authority in the event that (INAUDIBLE). So facing very difficult times, indeed.
Sorry. OK. It's a little noisy here. OK.
KAGAN: All right. We're going to let you get perhaps to a safer place, and we will check back in with you.
That is Ben Wedeman. We've been talking to him. He is in Gaza.
As you can see, an angry mob outside of the government buildings there. Members of the Fatah party very upset with how the elections earlier this week turned out with the Hamas landslide.
More of that just ahead.
Meanwhile, as we look at these parties, these Palestinian parties, Hamas and Fatah, why all the anger and concern about Hamas?
Tom Foreman looks -- takes a closer look at what Hamas is and why this election matters to America.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Here is why the surprise victory of Hamas matters to America, even if many Americans don't know it. It matters because, through repeated pledges and suicide bombings, Hamas has shown that it is dead serious about annihilating Israel, a long-time U.S. ally in a region that supplies much of America's oil.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't see how you can be a partner in peace if you advocate the destruction of a country as part of your -- of your platform. FOREMAN: It matters because this is a Middle Eastern flash point and the latest country in the region where radical anti-American elements are on the rise. And it matters because the United States has pledged to support democracy everywhere. But now a democratic vote has produced a government that some fear will be a tailor-made base for worldwide terrorists.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're a terrorist organizations, so it's clear that the -- unless they change, they will more than harbor terrorists. They will give them safe haven.
FOREMAN (on camera): Do you think there is any kind of road map for peace left in the Middle East now?
No. Regrettably, I think that -- that everybody's off the map.
FOREMAN (voice over): Hamas was started in the 1960s, largely to do religious and charitable work for Palestinians. For years the group labored in the political shadow of Yasser Arafat's better known Palestine Liberation Organization. But Hamas grew more visible as it became more militant.
In the 1990s, launching a long string of bombings targeting Israeli soldiers and citizens, the violence earned condemnation from some at home and many abroad, but also admirers. Middle East analysts say as Arafat's old PLO descended into disorder and scandal, Hamas appeared increasingly reliable and effective, even to Palestinians who want peace with Israel.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is also a social welfare organization that runs schools, health clinics, provides subsidies to widows and orphans throughout the West Bank and Gaza.
FOREMAN (on camera): And it's been very good at this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It has been extremely good at that, and it's parlayed that into a lot of public support.
FOREMAN (voice over): So why does all this matter to Americans? Analysts say it's simple. Hamas is in a position to affect more than ever before how much influence the United States has in the Middle East, which still provides much of the energy that makes America run.
Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: Want to go back live now to Gaza. Our Ben Wedeman is there.
We've been listening to him on the phone. We want to explain that when we're listening to Ben, you're hearing the crowds. You're also hearing gunfire.
It sounds like a very dangerous situation. And there is danger involved, but let me assure you, nobody knows more about the dangers of covering the situation than Ben Wedeman. And he has assured us he will take precautions and if it's not safe, he'll hang up on us, which would be delightful, indeed, if we knew because he was going to safety.
Ben, let's bring you back. It looks like now they're trying to set a vehicle on fire there.
WEDEMAN: Well, from where I am, I cannot see it. I have to sort of take cover, because where I was, people started to bust up the building itself. The situation is really very tense, and it doesn't look like the police really know what to do.
(INAUDIBLE) better nature (INAUDIBLE). But, you know, it doesn't distract from the fact there's some very bad, very angry people here.
KAGAN: OK. We're going to keep these pictures up. It's a little hard to hear Ben with all the noise.
And while we do that, let's also head -- go ahead and bring in our John Vause, who is live from the West Bank town of Ramallah.
Similar scenes there, John? Or are things calmer?
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Things have been very, very calm here, Daryn. There have been celebrations today. Many Palestinians, especially the Hamas supporters, reveling in this landslide win.
It's being described here as a political earthquake, for better or for worse. And even Palestinians who did not vote for Hamas are saying, if nothing else, this was an exercise in true democracy.
If Palestinians wanted a change, then they made their point with a vengeance. Hamas, with no experience in national politics, will now decide -- will have a major role in the destiny of the Palestinian people for the next four years.
But, of course, elsewhere, especially down in Gaza, where the Hamas is dominant, they're very, very angry there among Fatah with the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas. Today he said that he will call on Hamas to form a government. We're seeing the results now, the recriminations and the anger within his own Fatah party.
They're surrounding his house down in Gaza. It's a big villa not far away from -- from the ocean there. It normally has very heavy security outside, but by the looks of these people, hundreds and hundreds of angry Fatah supporters outside, that security may not be able to hold them back.
But we can tell you we understand that Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority president, is not at home in his villa in Gaza. We understand that he is currently here in Ramallah.
So the president of the Palestinian Authority is under no direct threat. Obviously, those in his house at the moment would be very, very worried by this angry mob outside. This is obviously more of a protest among Fatah officials. The reason why they are so worried, in the past Fatah officials have dominated the Palestinian Authority, have had a monopoly on jobs. Now the big concern, though, with Hamas taking power is that all of these people will lose their jobs. Hamas would say all of these corrupt officials will lose their perks and they'll now be handing these jobs not just over to Hamas supporters, according to officials within the Hamas camp, but also to anybody who wants a job.
There is a great deal of anger and recrimination among Fatah. We saw it last night in Gaza with gunmen walking through the streets, firing into the air.
They've called Abbas a traitor. They've also accused him of being a collaborator with Israel, an informer. That is one of the worst accusations a Palestinian can level against a Palestinian.
So this anger now boiling over outside Mahmoud Abbas' house down in Gaza. We must repeat, though, that we understand that the president is not inside the house at the moment. He is currently here in Ramallah -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Well, someone should tell those hundreds of people that showed up that there's no one home there to listen to their protests there.
Let me ask you a question about this, John. Is there a geographic distribution to where these parties are powerful?
VAUSE: Well, traditionally, Hamas has been very, very powerful and very, very strong in Gaza. But if you look at the actual election results, Hamas did very, very well in the West Bank, especially in the northern West Bank.
In fact, Hamas got a better vote, a better percentage in the West Bank than it did in Gaza. And that was very, very surprising. But it's part of a trend which has been taking place in the Palestinian territories for the last 12 months.
They've been holding municipal elections here, and Hamas has been swept to power across the West Bank in many of those municipal elections. In fact, on a local level, more than a million Palestinians are being governed by Hamas, and that's up and down the West Bank.
So, while tradition says Hamas is strongest in Gaza, they've certainly had a very, very strong showing in the West Bank, stronger than Gaza. And that was very surprising -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Well, and of course we're not just watching these pictures here in the U.S. You know they're watching these pictures in Israel.
How might the outcome of the elections and these type of scenes influence their upcoming election at the end of March?
VAUSE: Well, the concern now is that if Hamas does in fact renew its violent campaign against Israel -- it must e said that there's no indication that it will do that. It has given every indication that it will stick to a cease-fire which was agreed to in February last year. And, in fact, over the five years, Hamas has sent almost 60 suicide bombers into Israel. And since it agreed to that cease-fire, it has not sent one.
So if it does renew the violence, then what traditionally happens is that Israelis then tend to lurch toward the more conservative political parties, the parties of the Likud, currently led by the former prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. So that could affect the centrist Kadima party, the party which was recently founded by the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, who remains in a hospital in a coma, yet to regain consciousness. He's been there for three weeks now.
So the impact that this could have on the Israeli elections, it could benefit the right wing parties. But if it's all quiet, Daryn, it may have no impact -- no impact at all.
In fact, one poll put out today in an Israeli newspaper said that almost half of Israeli voters believe that Israel should hold negotiations with the Palestinian Authority even if Hamas is in a position of authority there.
KAGAN: John Vause in Ramallah.
Let's go back to the phones, keep the live pictures up, and check in once again with Ben Wedeman, who is in Gaza amongst all of these protesters -- Ben.
WEDEMAN: Yes, Daryn. There's a speaker calling on the crowd to be calm. They're trying to (INAUDIBLE) that it was wrong to burn (INAUDIBLE) Palestinian Legislative Council that, of course, are now on fire.
The speaker told them that the should -- now we have to run back. It looks like something's about to explode among those cars.
OK. It really is an unruly crowd. There's a man in front of me walking around with a rocket-propelled grenade and an AK-47.
Nonetheless, it does seem that things are beginning to calm down just a little bit. There's gunfire. People are just listening to the speech that's being made by someone whom I can't see.
So the attention is abating somewhat. But certainly not the problems that are going to be more and more apparent here in Gaza, it would appear, as Fatah members clearly don't accept or aren't happy with the results of these elections.
KAGAN: And tell us more about what the speaker is calling for.
WEDEMAN: What he's calling for was calm. He tells people to stop -- tells the people to stop destroying property, not to burn...
KAGAN: All right. It appears that we lost Ben Wedeman's phone call there.
Let's keep a live picture and go back to John Vause.
At this point, members of Fatah don't really seem like they have a lot of avenues except to express their frustration.
John, are you with us?
VAUSE: Yes, that's right, Daryn. In fact, the person who is speaking to the -- I'm here, Daryn, yes.
The person talking to the crowd right now is Mohammed Dahlan (ph). He's a strong man in Gaza, a Fatah candidate. We understand that he was elected one of the 43 few Fatah members who was, in fact, elected. He's a strong ally of Mahmoud Abbas, was -- and is seen as actually a possible successor to Mahmoud Abbas as the president of the Palestinian Authority.
He has a strong grip on Gaza. He's considered to be one of the -- one of the strong men, if you like. He has his own very fairly sizeable security force of his own.
He does have a lot of respect among Fatah, but he may not be able to control this crowd. They do appear to be angry. We can see the gunshots being fired into the air.
A lot of recriminations going on now about this Fatah electoral defeat. Many within Fatah are blaming Abbas for allowing Hamas to run in the first place. They say that was a mistake, that amounts to treason. And they're now calling on Abbas -- and they have been doing this for the last 24 hours -- to step down and to resign.
So far, Abbas is giving no indication that he plans to do that, but there is a great deal of speculation that if Abbas cannot get his agenda up, if he cannot renew peace talks with the Israelis, then he will have no other choice but to walk away. And the question will be not if, but rather when -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Well, and then -- so these protesters demanding his resignation, but how does that help their cause? Because at least they have a member of their party in the presidential seat.
VAUSE: Well, I think as far as they're concerned, they're not really thinking that far ahead. Right now they're after blood. They're after -- they want payback. They want someone to be held account for the terrible showing at the parliamentary elections, and they want someone to pay.
And at this moment, Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority, is the most visible sign. He is the one that called the elections, he is the one that allowed Hamas to participate. He is the one that put all of this in process.
To be fair, he was under a lot of pressure from the United States to make these elections happen. But really, in many ways, if these elections did not go ahead, Hamas could have been facing -- sorry, Abbas could have been facing a civil war on his hands.
He could have been facing a rebellion from Hamas. So really there was no other choice for Mahmoud Abbas. But, of course, this kind of thinking, this logical, rational thinking, would not be going down well a outside Abbas' villa in Gaza right now -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Point well taken.
John Vause in Ramallah.
Now, you have to figure American authorities watching these scenes unfold. Let's go to our State Department correspondent, Andrea Koppel, who's standing by in Washington, D.C., today -- Andrea.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPT. CORRESPONDENT: Daryn, we heard just yesterday President Bush, while he welcomed the results of the elections, also reaching out to the prime minister -- to President Abbas, rather, saying that he hoped that Abbas would stay in power. Why is that? Well, the United States feels that it had very few choices within the Palestinian Authority leadership of somebody that they could do business with and that could do business with Israel.
So this -- the scenes that we're watching right now are really not good news for the United States. They had hoped that Prime Minister Abbas would -- President Abbas, rather, would stay there in power, and were also hopeful, Daryn -- because the entire cabinet has resigned -- are also hopeful there would still be some Fatah members who would either take new positions within the cabinet or would hold onto their old positions, even though Hamas is now clearly going to be running the show in the parliament.
One of the things we have to keep in mind as we look at these incredibly angry people in the streets there is that they had -- their interest in Fatah staying in power had to do with their pocketbooks. Many of these people are on the payroll for the Palestinian Authority.
Their -- their checks that they get every month come from the fact that Fatah is in power. So a lot of these guys are out of work.
And another reason behind this, Daryn, is that there has been a lot of corruption, a lot of questions as to whether or not the Palestinian Authority was siphoning money off and sending it off to Swiss bank accounts and whatnot.
So this is bad news for Fatah, and it could be bad news for the United States.
KAGAN: Andrea Koppel in Washington, D.C. Thank you for that.
We'll continue to follow the story and bring you more live pictures and check in with our correspondents in the Palestinian territories.
We're going to be back in a minute. Right now a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KAGAN: And let's go back to our developing story, Gaza City, a demonstration turning tense and dangerous at times outside the government building there. We've been talking to our Ben Wedeman.
Ben, it seems from the pictures that things might be dispersing a little bit.
WEDEMAN: Yes, Daryn, it looks like people are beginning to disperse. But there's been another car on fire, another group of people. So we have three cars burning here with the trees (INAUDIBLE).
Just a little while ago, the Palestinian firemen came to put out the fires and the crowd would not let them (INAUDIBLE). So it's a messy situation here.
Daryn, are you there?
KAGAN: Yes, I'm there. I'm just trying to see if you're able to hear us and in a place where you can talk.
WEDEMAN: I'm OK. I'm OK.
KAGAN: All right. So things breaking up because people had their say, time to go home? Or what do you think calmed things down?
WEDEMAN: Well, it's really hard to say. Somebody is telling the crowd to go home, put an end to it and carry on the struggle another day. But the mood of people are very angry. There's no guarantee that this is the end of tonight's -- or rather today's problem.
Now, what's interesting is, to compare this with what we saw yesterday, which was celebration by Hamas where you had families, young people, women going out in the streets, driving through the streets cheering for Hamas's victory, here you have (INAUDIBLE) of a lot of -- they're mostly men, mostly young, a lot of them armed. And it's really been one of the reasons why Hamas has done well, is that people feel that Fatah and its followers is a faction out of control.
They're undisciplined, volatile, dangerous, armed and hard to control. And so this is really -- looking at these images, you understand why popular opinion is going in the direction of Hamas as a much more disciplined organization, one, nonetheless, described by the United States as a terrorist organization, one that (INAUDIBLE) conducted suicide bombings in Israel.
But nonetheless, Palestinians see these pictures and they wonder why on earth they would want Fatah to be in control of their lives.
KAGAN: All right, Ben. Thanks. We're going to stay with the pictures, and we'll be back to you in just a moment.
Want to get some more perspective on what we've been watching and what's developing politically among the Palestinians and welcome in Phyllis Bennis. She is with the Institute for Policy Studies, and she is an expert on Palestinian and Israeli relations. Phyllis, thank you for being with us.
PHYLLIS BENNIS, INSTITUTE FOR POLICY STUDIES: Good to be with you.
KAGAN: What do you make out of these pictures that you're seeing from Gaza?
BENNIS: Well, you know, Daryn, I think that what we're seeing here is immediate anger on the part of people who are feeling betrayed. They're angry at Abu Mazen, the Palestinian president, for the loss in the election. They're reflecting the fact that people cannot get jobs, people cannot move in -- even around the West Bank. Now they can move within the Gaza Strip, but not in and out because it's still controlled by Israel.
I think it's important that we remember that, for all of the talk right now about this is going to prevent future negotiations, there have been no negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians for almost two years now under a Fatah-led Palestinian Authority, not Hamas. So it's not likely to change all that much.
These young men that we're seeing in the streets are the same young men that we now know have -- according to the World Bank, there's 70 percent unemployment in the Gaza refugee camps among young men just like these, of this age group that we're seeing right here in front of us.
So there's a great deal of fear. There's anger at the Palestinian president for the electoral loss. But I think that this is -- this is going to be a very emotional period. There's a great deal of uncertainty.
KAGAN: And indeed, things -- if the threats come through to withhold funding because of world governments that don't want to deal with Hamas, things could get even more difficult for these people?
BENNIS: Things could get more difficult indeed. Things are already very difficult, but that could spread.
Right now, the 70 percent unemployment is in the refugee camps among young men between 16 and 24, the men that we're seeing right here, really. If the aid is cut -- and already the Israelis have called on the European Union not to "support a terrorist government," in the words of the Israeli foreign minister, that sounds to me like he's urging that the EU stop its funding. I think this could be very serious.
There may be ways to avoid this. I think even some of the U.S. official comments from President Bush and others, the tone was less dramatic than the language.
The tone, to me, said they are looking for ways to maintain some kind of ties with the Palestinians. That could lead to an increase in the role of the Palestine Liberation Organization, which has been largely sidelined in the years since the Palestinian Authority took power in 1994.
So there could be some very significant shifts here that go far beyond the question of Hamas's role in the legislature, which traditionally has not had that much power in the Palestinian governmental affairs anyway.
KAGAN: Phyllis Bennis with the Institute for Policy Studies.
Phyllis, thank you.
We want to go back to Washington, D.C., and our State Department correspondent, Andrea Koppel -- Andrea.
KOPPEL: Daryn, what I think is also interesting to point out to our viewers, as they well know -- we've been talking about it pretty much nonstop for the last day -- is that Hamas being what the U.S. and the European Union have labeled a terrorist organization, and, of course, Israel, the U.S. can't deal with Hamas as things stand right now and neither can Israel. In order for there to be some kind of dialogue, even if there aren't full-on peace negotiations, you need to have a third party, and the U.S. had looked to Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority, as somebody who could do that.
He hasn't been affected. He's been in power for the last year since he was elected democratically by the Palestinian people. He hasn't been able to do that, but the U.S. doesn't want to give up on him because they don't really have any other options.
And so the very fact that you have now within Mahmoud Abbas' own party this call and this outpouring of rage against him is definitely going to cause alarm, both in the White House and in the State Department.
Remember, these guys -- Fatah has been in power since Yasser Arafat returned from exile back in 1993 when he came back from exile with the PLO. And so they're used to being in power, even though, as we just heard, many of those young men who are out there are unemployed. A lot of the guys that you see holding those weapons right there are under the -- are getting salaries from Fatah. What's going to happen once Fatah is thrown out of power? Well, they're not going to necessarily have a job.
So this is bad news for them. It's bad news for the United States and European Union. In fact, on Monday, Secretary Rice -- or this weekend, she's going to be heading off for London, where she's going to meeting on the sidelines of the Afghan donors conference with members of the quartet, with the United Nations, with Russia and the European Union, to kind of strategize what next. What are they going to do now that their worst fears have been realized, that they have a labeled terrorist organization that's going to be running the Palestinian Authority?
And one of the things that we're going to be hearing Secretary Rice echoing during the meeting on Monday is the fact we need to -- that's what she's going to say -- we need to cut off funding to the Palestinian Authority, try to turn the screws on Hamas to moderate its views, and to really throw back what it's been saying ever since it came into existence, and that is Israel doesn't have a right to exist.
So this is going to be a long haul, Daryn. This is the very beginning of what's likely going to be an extremely painful and difficult process for the United States, for Israel, for the European Union, in dealing with the new entity that is now in power in the Palestinian Authority.
KAGAN: Well, a couple of questions and points to you, Andrea, if you will. First of all, isn't there some irony in that there's a Western disappointment that the party of Yasser Arafat is not in power? Is that due to the passage of time that they could have...
KOPPEL: Well, it's due to the fact that Yasser Arafat isn't around anymore and the fact that they have somebody now, Mahmoud Abbas, who was democratically-elected, somebody that the U.S. views as being a moderate within the Fatah Party and within the Palestinian -- you know, the possibilities of Palestinians who could run the show there.
The problem is, as we've seen over the last year, Mahmoud Abbas has not been able to deliver. The one kind of little silver lining in all of this has been the fact that Israel, under now, you know, incapacitated Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, had that unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, where these demonstrations are taking place.
So there are no longer any Israeli settlements there. There are no longer any Israeli troops there, which perhaps, if this had happened before the withdrawal, there might have been some sort of calming effect having the Israelis standing there. Now it's Fatah, it's anybody pretty much with a weapon, who is able to do what they want.
KAGAN: And the danger and the message that this could spread to other democracies or budding democracies or terrorist groups in that region, that this is how you come to power. You become a terrorist organization, and then you ultimately get respect.
KOPPEL: What we've seen, Daryn, really over the last number of months, since the Bush administration made spreading democracy throughout the Middle East the centerpiece of its foreign policy, is a number of militant groups coming to power, not necessarily running the country, but certainly gaining more power than they had before.
We saw the militant group the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt make significant gains in parliamentary elections there. We now know that Hezbollah, another militant group, another group that the United States has labeled a terrorist organization, it has a couple of members in parliament in Lebanon.
And we've also seen in Iraq the rise of the Shia groups that are aligned closely with Iran gain significant seats. In fact, they're the largest -- they have the largest bloc in the Iraqi parliament. Also next door in Iran, we saw -- in what the United States doesn't believe are democratic elections, but many others in the world believe were -- we saw the rise of Mr. Ahmadinejad, the hard-line Iranian leader. So despite the U.S. desire for democracy to bring peaceful change and to put in power people that the U.S. likes, that doesn't seem to be happening in the Middle East. And in fact, when you talk to Middle East analysts, they say that especially in the last number of years, especially since the second Palestinian intifada began in September of 2000, we have seen more militancy, more Islamic groups, gain a larger toehold within their various countries.
And that -- what these analysts say is, be careful what you wish for, President Bush. You may not like the results that you say you're pushing so hard to get.
KAGAN: Andrea Koppel, please stay with us. We want to go back to Ramallah now and John Vause -- John.
VAUSE: Daryn, what we've been seeing in Gaza in the lead-up to these elections, really now is coming to a crescendo on the streets of Gaza City, outside the Palestinian legislative council. And also outside the Palestinian Authority, President Mahmoud Abbas, outside his house.
What we saw in the lead-up, Fatah gunmen, members of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, storming the electoral commission buildings, trying to interfere with the pre-selection of candidates, that kind of thing. They were angry about these elections even being held in the first place, they were angry that Hamas was taking part. And now that Hamas has walked away with this last line of victory, many people in Gaza and also throughout the West Bank, many members of Fatah are worried that they'll be losing their jobs, they'll be worried about losing perks.
And also before this election, Hamas said that if they got into power, they would open the books and investigate corruption within the Palestinian Authority. They said that they could find wrong-doing, that they could prove corruption, then they would prosecute and they would send those people to jail.
So on the streets of Gaza, there's a mixture of things going on right now. There are people who are angry about losing their jobs, there are those who are angry about losing power. There's also those who are concerned about a corruption inquiry, about being persecuted by Hamas, about not getting a fair hearing, about being railroaded possibly.
And also in the Gaza Strip, this is where most of the lawlessness takes place within the Palestinian territories. It's an area which has been a law unto itself pretty much since the Israeli withdrawal over the last summer. Since the Israeli soldiers and the settlers left, there has been feuds between families, blood feuds. The casualties in Gaza have been slowly melting ever since the Israelis left. Palestinian-on-Palestinian violence. And this is what we're now seeing coming to a crescendo after this sweeping victory by Hamas.
What appears to have happened, though, Daryn, is that for the most part, Palestinians were just simply shocked by this result, that Hamas walked away with 73 seats in the Palestinian legislative council, a landslide. So for the 24 hours, there was just absolute disbelief amongst Palestinians. Even those who voted for Hamas could not believe that they did that well. In fact, Hamas was not even really prepared for government. though prepared for a coalition, possibly prepared for opposition. But now they will be in government.
So there is this shock that happened. And now, after a Friday of prayers, we saw at one mosque in Kanunez (ph), which was a Fatah mosque, there was preaching condemning the election results. There was a shoot-out there earlier today between Fatah supporters and Hamas gunmen. That left three people wounded. So obviously, people have gone to mosques today, they've been fired up. They're now on the streets and these are the results that we're seeing -- Daryn.
KAGAN: John Vause live in Ramallah, as we've been watching these pictures out of Gaza City. Thank you to you and Ben Wedeman and Andrea Koppel, as well.
We'll continue our coverage and get to other news of the day. Right now, a quick break.
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KAGAN: We're continuing to watch the situation in Gaza City. A number of protesters upset over the results of the Palestinian elections. These are members, we assume, of the Fatah Party, upset by the overwhelming landslide victory of Hamas. They went in front of the president's home, residence and in front of government buildings today, and expressed their frustration with chanting, lighting cars on fire, and shooting bullets up into the air. More reports on that just ahead.
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KAGAN: And now to crime and punishment and the legal debate over lethal injection. Is it cruel and unusual punishment? The issue has made its way to the U.S. Supreme Court. Justices have agreed to hear a Florida inmate's appeal, but they rejected the case of a convicted killer in Indiana, who was executed earlier this morning. The Supreme Court refused to hear and allow Marvin Bieghler and his challenge to lethal injection. Bieghler was put to death in Indiana this morning after telling executioners, quote, let's just get it over with. The Supreme Court did agree this week to hear Florida inmate's Clarence Hill's case. Hill was minutes away from being executed when the high court stepped in.
KAGAN: A convicted killer in California is also challenging lethal injection as cruel and unusual punishment, and his arguments the same as in other case.
We get details now from Eric Rosales with our affiliate KGO in San Francisco.
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ERIC ROSALES, KGO REPORTER (voice-over): Condemned killer Michael Morales claims because there's a chance that the drugs used during a lethal injection could cause him to suffer extreme pain, that's cruel and unusual punishment. His attorneys say California's last execution is evidence that the lethal injection process is not any more humane than previous forms.
BEN WESTON, MICHAEL MORALES' ATTY.: Clarence Ray Allen (ph) didn't die for 18 minutes after they administered the drugs. If you hang somebody, he's not going to stick around for 18 minutes. If you electrocute somebody, it doesn't take 18 minutes.
ROSALES: Just this week, the U.S. Supreme Court stopped the execution of Florida inmate Clarence Hill, who was already strapped to a gurney with IV lines in his arm. Justices will hold a hearing on whether the drug cocktail causes too much pain.
Lethal injections use three chemicals. The first is a sedative, sodium pentothal. The second causes paralysis and suffocation. And the third stops the heart. Morales claims that if the first chemical is not administered effectively, the other two would cause them to experience pain while being paralyzed and unable to speak.
Assistant Attorney General Dane Gillette says previous lethal injection challenges failed. He adds that the discomfort Morales will feel is nothing compared to the pain he inflicted on his victim, 17- year-old Terri Winchel.
DANE GILLETTE, ASST. ATTY. GEN.: He beat her, he stabbed her, he chocked her, he sexually assaulted her -- the kind of pain and suffering she went through was nothing like what would happen to Mr. Morales, who at most will have the discomfort of the injection of the two needles when they set up the IVs.
BARBARA CHRISTIAN, VICTIM'S MOTHER: I don't believe he has the right to eat and even breathe after doing something like this. None of these guys do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: An interesting side note on the Morales case. Former Whitewater prosecutor Ken Starr is stepping up to try to stop the execution next month. Starr is expected to file a petition today, asking Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to commute Morales' sentence to life without parole.
Filmmakers usually work behind the scenes to bring their characters to life, but at Sundance this year, one film has all of the filmmakers talking on camera, and it's stirring up a bit of a controversy. The movie is called "This Film is Not Yet Rated." I will speak with the filmmaker, coming up next.
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KAGAN: We have been watching these pictures develop over the last hour or so from Gaza City, upset Palestinians, upset about the Palestinian elections and how Hamas had a landslide victory. And a number of concerns for the people on the streets there as they light cars on fire, and shoot bullets into the air, and protest outside of government buildings and outside of the residence of the Palestinian president, who turns out was not even in Gaza City at the time of these protests.
So during this week, we have watched Palestinian politics turn upside down. CNN's Zain Verjee has a closer look at the political movements of Fatah and Hamas, and how they began and how they're different.
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ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Yellow for the Fatah Party, founded as the Palestinian Liberation Movement nearly half a century ago by Yasser Arafat. It became the ruling party when the Palestinian Authority was founded in 1994 and wasn't seriously challenged in the last parliamentary election a decade ago.
A year ago after Arafat's death, Fatah's Mahmoud Abbas was elected Palestine president by a landslide. Fatah won popularity during what Palestinians call the armed struggle against Israel, but over the past decade it's participated in peace talks. Fatah's one- party rule has now won it a reputation for corruption and mismanagement.
The green flags fly for Hamas, the Islamic resistance movement founded in 1987. It covenant calls for the destruction of Israel and seeks a fundamentalist state. Its weapon of choice? The suicide bomber. Dozens of attacks have taken a heavy toll, and Israel has struck back against Hamas leaders.
But while Hamas is labeled a terrorist group by the United States, it has long had a political wing, winning a reputation among Palestinians for its social welfare activities. Hamas campaigned on a clean government platform and won favor among many just by providing an alternative.
Zain Verjee, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: And we'll take a break. We're back with more coverage after this.
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KIRBY DICK, DIRECTOR, "THIS FILM IS NOT YET RATED": Then they have these bull (EXPLETIVE) statistics that they bring up, where it's like, well, 78 percent parents say they find the ratings very useful. And I always felt, like, it's because they're the only game in town. As compared to nothing at all, they probably are useful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Critically acclaimed director Kirby Dick is challenging the rating systems in his documentary "This Film Is Not Yet Rated." It debuted at the Sundance Film Festival in Park City, Utah, and that's where we find Kirby Dick, joining me there live. Hello.
KIRBY DICK, DIRECTOR, "THIS FILM IS NOT YET RATED": Good morning.
KAGAN: What is your gripe with the ratings system?
DICK: Well, the rating system is -- the ratings for all the films in this country are decided by a board that -- none of the people on the board are known publicly, except for one person. So it's really decided by a secret board. So that's my primary complaint.
KAGAN: So you think it's a form of censorship?
DICK: Oh, it's definitely a form of censorship. Independent films and foreign filmmakers, oftentimes their subject matter is about adult sexuality. And those films get rated much more harsher than studio films. Most of their films, you know, have a lot of -- great deal of violence. And those films get through the rating system much more easily.
KAGAN: So is it economic censorship, like the big studios versus the independent, or is it a value system of Americans, that it's OK to watch violence but not OK to watch sexuality?
DICK: You know, it's -- I think in some ways it's both. But it's certainly economic censorship. Because if you receive an NC-17 for a then there are many theaters that won't play it. There are -- Blockbuster oftentimes won't take it on the shelves. Television stations won't advertise it. So it's definitely a form of economic censorship.
KAGAN: Well, it's interesting that we ran that little piece of your film, where you talk about what the MPAA says. Because we do have a statement from them and they do say, "Indeed, nationwide surveys showed that 79 percent of all of the parents in America with children under 13 find the ratings system to be very useful to fairly useful in guiding the movie-going of their children. While it is not a perfect system, it has withstood the test of time, it has served parents well. Any parent who does have concerns about the ratings system ought to go see the movie. We think they'll leave it with even greater respect for the MPAA ratings system."
So how about that, Kirby? It's kind of like a backwards endorsement to go see your movie.
DICK: Well, I think the key phrase is very useful to fairly useful. I mean, for all we know, you know, 70 percent of those 78 percent that is quoted might only find it fairly useful. And I don't think fairly useful is a high enough standard for a rating system in terms of, you know, advising parents as to what is in films.
KAGAN: So would like to see no ratings at all?
DICK: No, not at all. What I would like to see is a rating system that's transparent, the process is open to the public, a rating system that has much more developed standards that the public is aware of. There's -- and also, have the raters receive training. They're actually hired and the next day they begin rating without any training.
And finally, there are no experts on the board no, child psychology experts on the board. And they don't even -- Jack Valenti, who founded the ratings system, doesn't even want that. In fact, he said he only wants ordinary people on the board.
KAGAN: So your film's called "This Film Is Not Yet Rated," and yet indeed, it is rated, right? You do have a rating of NC-17?
DICK: Well, we did, yes. We submitted the film to the ratings system to find out firsthand what other filmmakers went through. And we did get an NC-17. But then we kept -- then I kept filming that process as I went through the ratings process and then actually through the appeals process, which is where you can go if you don't like the rating you get. And I was told that that board was not a secret board. But then when I asked for the names of those people, they refused to give them to me. So the secrecy is rampant throughout the system.
KAGAN: One of the reasons independent filmmakers come to Sundance is to get a distributor. Have you found one for your movie?
DICK: We have a great deal of interest. When we premiered to 12,000 people, we received a standing ovation. So we're very confident.
KAGAN: All right. Let's hope that that interest turns into some bottom line dollars for you. Good luck with the movie. Kirby Dick, "This Film Is Not Yet Rated."
DICK: Thank you.
KAGAN: And let's look at some live pictures now. Louisville, Kentucky, these are pictures -- are they live pictures? That's the question. It is live pictures, all right, we can put up that. Live pictures. It's a barge on the loose. Oh, it's tape, actually. All right. Tape. A barge on the loose. And you can see, it apparently has run into some pile-on there, some large columns. We'll have the latest on that.
I am Daryn Kagan. International news is up next. You can stay tuned for YOUR WORLD TODAY. I'll be back. I'll get the latest on that barge for you, also other headlines from here in the U.S. That will be in about 20 minutes. See you then.
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