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Hundreds of Thousands Protest New Youth Job Law in France; Military Tribunals; Role Reversal in Moussaoui Trial?; Former Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger Dies at 88

Aired March 28, 2006 - 11:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to CNN LIVE TODAY.
I'm Daryn Kagan.

We want to get back to the developing story out of Paris, France. Thousands of young people taking to the streets of Paris and many other cities across France, unhappy with a labor law that allows employers to fire them without cause after 10 months if that's what the boss wants to do.

Our Paula Hancocks is on the phone explaining what we're watching in -- right in the middle of Paris -- Paula.

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi Daryn.

Well, at the moment, the police are trying to contain these protesters. They were hoping that there would be no violence in this day of protesting across the country, this Tuesday. There's about 4,000 riot police that are on call just in case they needed them, and you can see a fair few of them in that crowd.

And this is Place de la Republique, which is in the center east of the city, so a very public place, a real touristy place. And you can see there that there's a bit of a standoff between the protesters and the police. The police trying to herd them into some sort of order. Now, this is obviously what they didn't want to happen.

We do think that about tens of thousands of protestors are in that particular area at the moment. They've marred through the streets of Paris, and that is where they intended to end up. Students, those union members, also some transport workers who walked out from the job to show solidarity against this employment law.

Now, just to let you know exactly why they don't want this employment law, the law will actually a contract to be given to a person under the age of 26, and for the first two years the employer will be able to fire them without any reason and with very little notice.

Now, the prime minister, Dominique de Villepin, says that what that will do is make the labor market more flexible. It will actually create more jobs.

Of course, as you can see from these pictures here, the students and unions don't agree with that. They're worried that employees will -- employers will actually be able to exploit them. They might be able to not give them job security, not give them long-term contracts. And as you can see, they are dead set against it. These protests actually going on all across France, not just Paris -- Daryn.

KAGAN: At least this one in Paris, Paula, doesn't look very well organized. Just a bunch of young people hanging around.

HANCOCKS: Well, the plan was for them to travel -- to walk from one part of Paris, which was just south of the river, up to this particular area where they have congregated now. And of course as with many of these demonstrations, as soon as they finish their walking, as soon as they get to the point of destination, then you have a lot of people who are just hanging around in one area. And, of course, that's when things can become a little more tense. And even if there's just small pockets of violence, that can spread very quickly.

So what the police have said themselves they would like to do is, by 8:00 p.m. local time, which is about two hours' time from now, they want to clear people from the street. That was their intention.

Now, of course you can see there's a lot of people in that particular square. So it's going to be quite tricky for them to actually clear that particular square. And certainly many of these protesters have a very firm message to give to the prime minister. They're not going to want to go home until they feel they have given him that message.

KAGAN: Paula Hancocks live on the phone from Paris, France. We'll continue to watch that developing story.

Thank you, Paula.

It's an open and shut case for President Bush. He believes he has broad authority to wage the war on terror, but attorneys for a terror suspect have called him on that. This morning the Supreme Court hears the case to decide who's right.

Here now, CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Osama bin Laden's alleged bodyguard and driver, Salim Ahmad Hamdan, is challenging the constitutionality of U.S. military tribunals. They were authorized by President Bush to try terrorist suspects after September 11. The primary argument, designating suspects as enemy combatants and trying them outside the U.S. legal system violates the fundamental doctrine of separation of powers.

LT. CMDR. CHARLES SWIFT, ATTORNEY FOR SALIM AHMED HAMDAN: In this particular conflict, the president has asserted that he has basically a blank check to do whatever he deems necessary and we disagree with that.

MCINTYRE: Up to 490 suspected al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners now at the U.S. military base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, 10 people, including Hamdan, face charges before a military commission. Defense attorneys and human rights groups say the commissions are fundamentally unfair. The administration argues the president is simply acting as a war-time commander in chief and that commission benefit from World War II precedent.

DAVID RIVKIN, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ATTORNEY: It's not the presidential power's unlimited, but he is entitled to reasonable latitude. If they were to go -- Hamdan's lawyers in 81 of possible theories, it would be an unprecedented denial of the president's prerogative.

MCINTYRE: Other significant issues include whether Guantanamo prisoners can enforce Geneva Conventions protections in U.S. courts and whether a new law, the Detainee Treatment Act, just enacted by Congress last year, essentially renders the whole case moot. The Hamdan case has the potential of being a landmark ruling on the limits of presidential power. It will be heard by eight of the nine justices because Chief Justice John Roberts has recused himself because he was part of a three-judge panel that ruled against Hamdan. A decision in this case is expected later this summer.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: Now a story that had a most unusual legal twist from yesterday. Zacarias Moussaoui was a star witness against him. Jurors will now have to decide whether to believe him enough to condemn him to death.

In his sentencing trial, the confessed al Qaeda conspirator unleashed a string of startling admissions. Peppered among them, some stark contradictions. For example, he now says he did know about the 9/11 attacks and was to fly a plane into the White House. Before he'd always maintained that he was out of the loop and trained only for a second wave of attacks.

Moussaoui's testimony triggers an odd reversal of roles. Defense attorneys will now have to attack their client's credibility in order to save his life. Prosecutors, in effect, will have to defend his trustworthiness. But as the defendant's erratic behavior has shown, this trial has been about the unexpected.

In our Washington bureau we have our terrorism analyst Peter Bergen and former federal prosecutor Andrew McBride.

Gentleman, good morning.

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Good morning.

ANDREW MCBRIDE, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Good morning, Daryn.

KAGAN: The first question I put to both of you -- and Peter, I'll start with you -- is do you believe Zacarias Moussaoui and what he had to say on the stand yesterday? BERGEN: I'm skeptical about a lot of things he said. The idea that he was in league with Richard Reid and was going to attack the White House on September 11 doesn't make a lot of sense. Richard -- there's no indication that Richard Reid was trying to come into the United States at that time.

It's not even clear to me that Moussaoui and Reid really knew each other. They may have encountered each other in London at a radical mosque kind of informally. But I'm skeptical of that.

And I'm also -- you know, at the trial, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who was the operational commander of 9/11, explained that Moussaoui, through -- it was explained that through a U.S. official who had talked to Mohammed that Moussaoui was always somebody on the fringes of the operation. And terrorist organizations tend not to want to deal with people who seem to have mental problems, and I think Moussaoui seems to be somebody who is not exactly stable, and I think the al Qaeda central has said repeatedly in different forums that they really sidelined Moussaoui from the main 9/11 plot.

KAGAN: Andrew, do you believe what you heard on the stand?

MCBRIDE: I think some of what Mr. Moussaoui said is undoubtedly true.

First, that he did meet some of the 9/11 co-conspirators in training camps in Afghanistan.

Secondly, I think it is credible for him when he says that he knew generally that the twin towers were one of the targets.

Thirdly, his statement that the White House was a target of a fifth plane that might have been piloted by him makes some sense because he took pilot training lessons and the government has introduced evidence that his dream, as he told Osama bin Laden, was to fly a plane into the White House.

So I think certainly Mr. Moussaoui's testimony is a homerun for the government to the extent it dovetails with their case. And I think Mr. Moussaoui throughout has been very clear. He has said, "I did not know about 9/11." And I think Peter would have to agree he's being very technical.

I think he meant, I did not know about the date 9/11 because Mr. Atta bought the first ticket nine days after Mr. Moussaoui was arrested. But I don't think Mr. Moussaoui meant, I didn't know something about the general plot of 9/11 because he obviously knew there was a plot to fly planes, use planes as weapons and fly them into buildings. And this is devastating testimony, I think, for the defense.

KAGAN: Peter, your take on what Andrew has to say.

BERGEN: No, I agree completely. I mean, I think it was generally quite widely known in the Afghan training camps that there was some kind of anti-United States operation taking place in the summer of 2001. And Moussaoui obviously was getting flight training, he did meet with bin Laden, he did talk about this White House plot.

But I think one point that I would make is, I don't think the White House was particularly serious. I say that because to fly a passenger jet into the White House is a very difficult thing to do.

It's a very small building surrounded by trees when you're up high in the air with a large jet. Whereas Capitol Hill is a building on a -- its very name suggests it's a large building on a hill and very easy to track. And so al Qaeda central decided to take the White House off the list of targets on 9/11 because it was such a hard target to actually hit.

So I'm not saying that Moussaoui is not a very bad guy, and certainly he almost committed suicide on the -- on the -- on the stand yesterday with his own self-incriminating statements. But I'm just skeptical about some of the details that he -- that he gave out yesterday.

KAGAN: I'm going to interrupt our conversation here. I'm not finished with you, but I do want to let you know we're getting breaking news. Getting word that Caspar Weinberger, the former defense secretary under Ronald Reagan, has died. He was 88 years old. We're going to talk to Ed Henry about his life and his legacy as defense secretary in just a minute.

But before I left you go, Andrew, I want to get you in here. So you see this testimony yesterday as devastating to the defense. What do they do to finish things up and what does the prosecution do?

MCBRIDE: Well, the defense today, as Peter suggested, will introduce some of these statements from Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and others to the effect that Moussaoui was a bumbler (ph), that the higher-ups in al Qaeda had no confidence in him, that they would not have used him. And I think Mr. McMahon and the defense team, who have done an excellent job, really have to be devastated by what the defendant has done.

They will have to attack the defendant's credibility and they will have to try and tell this jury the defendant is engaged in self- aggrandizement. Mr. Moussaoui is an adherent of al Qaeda and this is puffery.

He's trying to make himself more than he is because he cares more about being a big guy in al Qaeda than he does about the death penalty. So, ladies and gentleman, don't believe him and don't give him the death penalty. I think that's the only defense they have left.

KAGAN: We will be watching, our CNN producers and reporters from inside that courtroom.

Andrew McBride, Peter Bergen, thanks for the discussion.

MCBRIDE: Thank you, Daryn.

KAGAN: And CNN "Security Watch" keeps you up to date on safety. Stay tuned day and night for the most reliable news about your security.

Well, you've seen the images. Thousands taking to the streets protesting proposed changes to immigration laws. But what exactly is at stake, and why should you care? Both sides of the immigration debate when we continue. We'll have more on that just ahead.

Meanwhile, we're also watching what's taking place in Paris, France. Thousands of young people taking to the street. You can see riot police being pelted with paint. They're going in.

Thousands of young people taking to the streets of Paris and cities all across France, protesting new labor laws. More on that just ahead.

Plus, the latest on the breaking news. Former defense secretary Caspar Weinberger dead at the age of 88.

We're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: This is just in to CNN. Former defense secretary Caspar Weinberger, defense secretary under Ronald Reagan, has died. He was 88 years old.

Our White House Correspondent Ed Henry has more on that -- Ed.

ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Daryn.

That's right. CNN has confirmed that confirmation of Caspar Weinberger's death coming from his daughter, Arlen Weinberger (ph). She told me that the former secretary from the Reagan administration died at 5:00 a.m. this morning in Bangor, Maine, where he had a home.

He died of pneumonia, as you mentioned, at the age of 88 years old. His daughter told me no funeral arrangements set yet, but she noted that he wanted to be buried at Arlington National Cemetery, so the family is working on that now as we speak.

A particular shock to alumni of the Reagan administration, because this passing happening just within 24 hours of another Reagan alumnus, Lynn Nofsinger, the colorful former spokesman and adviser to Ronald Reagan, passing away yesterday. So some sad news. Two deaths in the Reagan alumni, the Reagan family.

Two former top aides to the former president, the late president, passing away yesterday and now today. Caspar Weinberger at the age of 88 -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Ed Henry at the White House.

Ed, thank you.

On to immigration. Whether they built your home, landscaped your yard or even looked after your kids, it's no secret. Illegal immigrants are a major part of the American workforce. Today their future is up for debate on Capitol Hill. At issue, whether illegal immigrants should be allowed to stay, and if so, under what conditions.

We're taking a look at both sides of the issues. First, our Joe Johns with the personal side of the political debate.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Antonio, not his real name, came to this country from Mexico more than 20 years ago and took up renovating houses in Baltimore, where we met him last year, an illegal immigrant in business for himself.

ANTONIO, UNDOCUMENTED WORKER: I love Baltimore.

JOHNS: He is exactly the kind of undocumented worker advocates of immigration reform point to in making the case that illegal workers are good for the U.S. economy. Antonio told us he works hard, pays taxes, that he hires his own employees.

ANTONIO: We produce money. We don't need nothing from the -- from the government.

JOHNS (on camera): When you say that, do you pay taxes also?

ANTONIO: Yes, I pay. Exactly. Exactly, I pay $11,200 for taxes.

JOHNS (voice over): In fact, undocumented workers pay a lot of taxes. Many pay real estate taxes either as homeowners or as part of their rent. They pay sales taxes. And according to the government, three-quarters of undocumented workers pay payroll taxes, contributing as much as $7 billion in Social Security funds that they will never claim.

Antonio says all he wants is his piece of the American dream, and that by being here illegally he's not stealing anybody else's dream or anybody else's job.

ANTONIO: And the United States, they have many jobs. They need many hands.

JOHNS: Those who could use help from the Antonios of the world include small business owners like Tom Wolfgang, whose refrigerated trucking company in the Baltimore area has been suffering from a workforce crunch.

TOM WOLFGANG, TRUCKING COMPANY CO-OWNER: We've actually had to downsize our company over the last three years because we can't find either truck drivers and warehouse people. We've probably downsized about 20 percent.

JOHNS (on camera): Not because of supply and demand but because you couldn't find people?

WOLFGANG: No. Actually, I curtailed sales because there's more business than I can handle just because I can't get the labor.

JOHNS (voice over): Wolfgang's company doesn't hire illegal immigrants and finds it difficult to compete against the companies that do. But he's spending a lot of money, $50,000 in advertising last year alone. Plus, big bucks for legal help to try to get specialized visas for qualified applicants.

It's the kind of work that keeps Baltimore's immigration lawyers busy, including attorney Geoff Tobias, who argues that the American economy can't do without the immigrant labor force now working in the shadows.

Take the restaurant business.

GEOFF TOBIAS, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: It would almost cease to exist. The construction industry would have a great difficulty. So many seasonal industries, agriculture, landscaping, construction, transportation.

JOHNS: And, says Tobias, companies wouldn't waste all that money paying him to help them get foreign labor if they could get U.S. workers.

TOBIAS: We're talking about $18 an hour welding jobs, we're talking about $18, $15 an hour trucking jobs, truck driving jobs that they just cannot find people to handle.

JOHNS: As for Antonio, he says he wishes he had legal status. But with it or without it, his plan is to keep on working.

ANTONIO: Maybe someday I take your job. Why not?

JOHNS: Joe Johns, CNN, Baltimore.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: Joe, he's going after your job there.

The other side, some Americans say putting out the welcome mat for illegal immigrants opens the door to bigger worries, national security as well.

Here now is CNN's Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): All along the Chesapeake Bay, where hard work and long hours define many jobs, low- wage jobs have drawn large numbers of immigrants. No one knows how many, but everyone has a guess, including contractor Ronnie Turner.

RONNIE TURNER, CONTRACTOR: Within the last seven or eight years, the Hispanics have quadrupled here basically.

FOREMAN: He has no complaint with legal arrivals, but illegals are something else. TURNER: A lot of companies hire those immigrants at a lot less wages -- lower wages than they do, you know, other guys.

FOREMAN (on camera): You think they drive down wages for everyone?

TURNER: Sure.

FOREMAN (voice over): While many people in this area praise the work ethic of legal immigrants, they also recite the problems they associate with illegals: social friction, drains on public services, gang violence. Town council president John Ford has heard it all and says illegals do bring unique challenges.

(on camera): Are they likely to call the police if they have a problem?

JOHN FORD, EASTON TOWN COUNCIL: They're unlikely to call the police if they have a problem.

FOREMAN: Are they likely to have medical insurance?

FORD: My -- my feeling is no.

FOREMAN: And what about housing?

FORD: Housing's a problem for anybody at the lower economic level. And it's critical with the immigrant population because of the rapid influx that we're experiencing.

FOREMAN (voice over): At this elementary school, immigrant children now comprise 10 percent of the student body. It's not clear how many are illegal, but principal Kelly Griffith says when they do arrive illegally, she often does not know how old they are, what grade they are in, and how she will pay for the extra help those students need.

KELLY GRIFFITH, PRINCIPAL, EASTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL: It's not just about educating them academically, but it's also about really, truly educating them culturally. And it starts with expectations. It goes all the way to -- you know, health.

FOREMAN (on camera): To language...

GRIFFITH: Language. It's everything.

FOREMAN: Many people here will tell you so far their community is handling all of these problems relatively well, but they worry about the future. What will happen if more and more illegal immigrants come?

(voice over): Legal migrant workers have visited here for so many years, everyone is used to them. But what is happening now is different.

TURNER: If they come in legally and work, I'm all for it. If they're here illegally, no matter what the circumstances, I don't think they should be allowed to stay here.

FOREMAN: But right now this area is grappling with a hard truth, illegal immigrants are staying more and more and more.

Tom Foreman, CNN on the Chesapeake Bay.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: And as we look at different opinions on the different sides of the immigration debate, things can get pretty heated. One person with no shortage of thoughts is our Lou Dobbs.

Last hour I had a chance to get his take on a new Senate bill, and guess what? He has some strong views.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT": We are witnessing the Senate Judiciary Committee basically roll over for corporate America, illegal employers, and say it is fine to exploit and deny the basic American dignity of a working man and woman and allow them to be exploited. Americans would gladly take nearly all of these jobs if they paid a reasonable amount of money, a decent, decent wage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: CNN's Lou Dobbs, his in-depth report on illegal immigration. He takes his anchor chair to Mexico tomorrow to report on the immigration summit. Three leaders plus Lou live from Mexico. You do the math.

Starting tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

We're going to check on the markets. They've been open a couple of hours.

Interest rates, they affect many of us. There's car loans, there's your mortgage, and there's business.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

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