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CNN Live Today

U.S. Intends to Restore Full Diplomatic Ties With Libya; President Bush's Plan to Deploy National Guard Troops to U.S.-Mexico Border; New England Flooding

Aired May 15, 2006 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to the second hour of CNN LIVE TODAY. I want you to know you will see more of Tony Harris' interview with Bill Cosby later today on "LIVE FROM". So you can look forward to that.
Also, this hour, we're looking at states of emergency in New England. And this hour, the area's worst flooding in 70 years has forced evacuations and washed out roads. A live report is just ahead.

Also ahead, White House adviser Karl Rove delivers a policy address this hour in Washington. Let's rewind. Wasn't he stripped of his policy portfolio? We'll talk about that in a minute

First of all, CNN breaks news on the U.S. and Libya. They have decided to restore full diplomatic ties. This is the first time in over a quarter century.

Elise Labott broke the news just in the last hour. She joins us now by phone -- Elise.

ELISE LABOTT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Daryn, big news today for the Libyans. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice just putting out a statement that the United States is restoring full diplomatic relations with Libya.

As you know, at the end of 2003, Libya really surprised the international community when it abandoned and, in fact, declared a secret weapons program and started dismantling it. A lot of those weapons shipped to the United States. And over the last couple of years we've seen a real easing of U.S. sanctions with Libya, an establishment of a liaison office with senior officials manning those offices.

And now an establishment of full diplomatic ties, the establishment of an embassy in both countries, and now ambassadors. And big news for Libya, that the United States intends to remove Libya from the designated list of state sponsors of terrorism. It was listed in 1979, and now it's going to see itself get off that list.

That's really the first country of a sitting leader to be removed from the list, Daryn. And speaking with Libyan officials this morning, very happy about the news. They've been waiting for it for a long time.

KAGAN: Most Americans hear the country's name of Libya and they think of things like Pan Am Flight 103, Lockerbie, Scotland, things that do not hold a positive connotation.

LABOTT: Well, that's right. But what the international community and the United States in particular is saying is that a country can rehabilitate itself. President Moammar Qadhafi admitted that some Libyan officials were responsible and put them up for trial, and also gave a lot of remuneration to members of the -- members of the Pan Am 103 families.

And so the United States saying that a country can rehabilitate itself. Obviously, the families of the Pan Am 103 bombing victims very upset this morning. We've been trying to reach out to some of them, very distressed about the news. But others are saying, listen, this is expected, we know that the United States has to move on, and the fact that Moammar Qadhafi did at least try to atone for this horrible bombing.

They understand that eventually the United States had to establish better relations with Libya.

KAGAN: Elise Labott, who if you were with us in the last hour, you saw her break that news right here on CNN.

Let's get more on the story. Breaking news, the U.S. intends to restore full diplomatic ties with the country of Libya.

David Ensor joins us with more on that -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Daryn, this is going to have a dramatic impact on the oil markets because Libya is a major producer of sweet crude. That is, crude that produces more gasoline per barrel. It's one of the best suppliers of that very fine fuel in the world.

So clearly, this will -- this will please the oil markets. It may even bring down the price of oil a little bit.

As Elise mentioned, this is a major change. More than 25 years ago, 26 years ago, to be precise, the United States broke off diplomatic ties with Libya after its embassy had been attacked by a mob. And in a country like Libya, mobs don't get to do things like that without the government allowing them to do it.

So, a break-off of relations in 1980. Then you had 1988, the Pan Am 103 attack by terrorists, and a Libyan official was subsequently convicted of arranging for that bomb to be on that plane. So that really put relations into the deep freeze.

Then in late 2003, early 2004, the Libyan leader, Mr. Qadhafi, rather mercurial. He changes his mind from time to time, and he did it again. He decided to give up Libya's weapons of mass destructions programs.

And I was one of the reporters who was taken to facility in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Here you see the pictures of that event.

There's the secretary of energy, Mr. Abraham, at the time, showing us crates of material that had been shipped out by the United States to Oak Ridge, Tennessee. These were materials that were part of the Libyan bomb-making program, nuclear and otherwise.

So, Libya there giving up -- those are parts of centrifuges you're looking at there -- giving up all of the technology it had acquired, some of it through the Pakistani black marketeer A.Q. Khan that would be useful in the development of a nuclear weapon, and also materials for chemical and biological weapons besides.

So, here the administration -- you will be hearing from Secretary Rice soon -- I imagine will point out that here they're showing that you can turn around your country, you can give up weapons of mass destruction -- message here to Iran -- and there will be rewards for that. Message also, perhaps -- they may not mention this -- that the Iraq war had, at least in the U.S. view, in the Bush administration's view, some positive impact. Here's a government that's decided to change its way -- its route towards weapons of mass destruction in light of what the U.S. was doing in Iraq -- Daryn.

KAGAN: David Ensor, thank you. I remember that story of yours, by the way. That was fascinating, fascinating stuff.

David, thank you.

ENSOR: Thank you.

KAGAN: From the front lines to the forefront of the illegal immigration battle, President Bush is expected to call for the deployment of National Guard troops in -- to the U.S.-Mexico border. He'll outline that plan tonight. But you don't have to wait for primetime. We have already learned some of the details of the proposal, and we can tell you there are concerns on both sides of the border.

Our Kathleen Koch is at the White House with more on the president's plan.

Kathleen, what are the critics saying about the plan?

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the critics have a lot of problems with the plan, Daryn. And that's why tonight's speech is so very important.

The president will be doing run-throughs of it himself today. It's supposed to be a roughly 20-minute speech. This is his 21st Oval Office address to the nation. And new White House Press Secretary Tony Snow summed it up by saying it's crunch time for the president on this very divisive issue.

As you know, the U.S. Senate crafted a compromise late last week to reinvigorate debate on the measure up on the Hill, and they could begin debate as soon as this afternoon. And it's a divisive issue for many in the president's base because so very many conservatives are adamantly opposed to any sort of guest worker program that ends up in the end putting any illegal immigrants on the path to citizenship. They believe that that's tantamount to amnesty. Now, President Bush would argue his plan does not grant anyone amnesty, simply would put them at the back of the line to secure citizenship. But the president is going to try to rally support tonight by -- by presenting this new plan that you described, putting as many as 10,000 National Guard troops on the southern border. And the White House argues this would be temporary, this would not be permanent. They would be not apprehending or holding the illegal immigrants, they would just be there in a supportive role, to bolster the Border Patrol agents already there, and basically to give the federal government more time to train and deploy more of those troops -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Kathleen Koch at the White House.

Kathleen, thank you.

Now, we'll have to wait until tonight to find out exactly how many troops the president is talking about. But as of last September, there were about 450,000 troops in the Army and Air National Guard, 78,000 of them deployed overseas, including Iraq and Afghanistan. The Pentagon tells CNN in theory it could support a force of up to 10,000 National Gourd troops on the border.

Our Andrea Koppel is on Capitol Hill with a look at how the president's plan may play there on the day that -- Andrea, isn't the Senate itself getting back to work on immigration issues?

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Exactly, Daryn. In fact, just about three hours from now, the Senate is set to resume debate on possible amendments to its own immigration reform legislation.

The hope and the expectation is that the speech may help to bridge the deep divide among Republicans, especially where you've got conservatives on the one hand who are saying that to offer an earned pass to citizenship is tantamount to amnesty, and moderates on the other who say, you've got to come up with something reasonable to do with between 11 million to 12 million people.

Now, Senator Bill Frist, the majority leader, if this bill goes through, it would be a big victory for him, as well as for the White House. And he has already signaled his support for President Bush's idea.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: I have encouraged use of the National Guard. Again, not the Army and not the other military, but the National Guard, which is traditionally under the auspices of the states. I've encouraged, I've encouraged strongly. I think that's the least we can do.

Securing our borders is a federal responsibility. We need to act. We have failed miserably in the past. That was what we failed with in 1986 when we last gave amnesty but we didn't secure our borders. This time, we've got to get it right. (END VIDEO CLIP)

KOPPEL: Now, earlier this morning, here on "AMERICAN MORNING," the Democratic leader, Harry Reid, told CNN that he actually signaled his tentative support for the president's ideas but said that he saw it as more of a quick fix.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: On the face of it, I think it is a good idea, but I say we have to be very specific with what the president wants to do. I think that we have to understand that the states can't afford to do this. This is not their responsibility. It's a federal responsibility.

And remember, Miles, we have 12 million people who have come here illegally over the past 20 years. We have to make sure that what we do is permanent, not temporary in nature.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOPPEL: Now, the Senate majority leader, Bill Frist, has already expressed optimism that he thinks the bipartisan bill will make its way through the Senate in the next couple of weeks, before the end of the month, Daryn. But as you know, the big hurdle would come afterwards when the House and the Senate try to reconcile their bills. As you know, the House legislation is much, much tougher and only focuses really on border security, and would criminalize the 11 million to 12 million immigrants currently in this country -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Andrea Koppel, live on Capitol Hill.

Andrea, thank you.

We are all over the story today, and we have in-depth primetime coverage tonight. That gets started at 7:00 Eastern when Lou Dobbs joins Wolf Blitzer for a special edition of "THE SITUATION ROOM."

After the speech, Lou Dobbs hosts a special edition of "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT." "LARRY KING LIVE" is up at 9:00 Eastern, reporting live from the border. And Anderson Cooper wraps it all up with a very special edition of "AC 360."

It is all here on CNN.

But we're not done. Getting to the immigration issue right here on CNN LIVE TODAY. About 30 minutes from now, we set up a debate on illegal immigration. Both sides of the issue, what do they think about the president's plan to post National Guard troops along the border?

Still ahead, days of rain and the rivers rise in New England. We'll get a live update on a hard-hit town.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: President Bush may be looking to make points with one particular audience tonight.

Our senior political correspondent, Candy Crowley, joins us from Washington.

Candy, good morning.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

KAGAN: What do you think the audience is?

CROWLEY: Well, I think the target is the conservatives on the House side. Getting a bill through the Senate has proven more difficult than they thought it would be, but the real crunch is about how to get the House and the Senate to come up with a single bill that they can then send to the president.

And the problem the conservatives have is, number one, they feel that their constituents have been very unhappy with this administration of late over spending and any number of things. And one of them, of course, is immigration.

So what they want is tough border patrol, which, of course, is what we've been talking about the whole day. That's what's sort of grabbed the headlines. So that's, you know, the president's way of giving cover to some conservatives who might then be able to swallow some of the other parts of the bill, the pathway to citizenship, that sort of thing.

KAGAN: You know, you make an interesting point about anything getting through Capitol Hill. It was right before the Easter-Passover break that we saw the Senate try to tackle this before. A lot of energy, a lot of movement, but nothing happened.

What are the chances of actually a bill getting passed through both the Senate and the House?

CROWLEY: Interesting. You know, I learned a long time ago not to -- not to sort of predict what they can and can't do.

It's going to be tough. I mean, here's the problem.

Senators, in some ways it's easier for them. They have a large constituency. It's a single state. But if you look at the House side, particularly after reapportionment, what you have are more liberal districts and more conservative districts.

So a number of Republicans who come from safe seats and come from conservative districts have absolutely no reason to go ahead and go along with the bill that has a pathway to citizenship. So, you know, what the president needs to do really is pick off enough people who could join with Democrats and then pass a bill. But still, anything this big is a tall order in an election year.

KAGAN: So, if nothing gets done, is President Bush taking a huge political risk here? CROWLEY: Well, I don't -- I don't think the president himself is, and here's why. Number one, how big a risk is it if you're at 32 percent? So, it goes to 31, 30, 29? He has to continue to try. And he has these -- again, these sort of conflicting needs.

You have the need on Capitol Hill by Republicans to prove they can get something done. So they dearly want to pass this bill, but then you have the conflict with the conservatives, who don't want this particular form of an immigration bill done. So it really has more of an impact up there because they're, of course, the ones that are up for re-election.

KAGAN: Candy Crowley from Washington.

Candy, thank you.

CROWLEY: Sure.

KAGAN: By the way, here's an interesting byproduct of tonight's speech. She is the queen of daytime talk. He's the commander in chief. In this case, President Bush wins out.

His primetime address has prompted a programming change for Oprah Winfrey and her pet project. She has bowed to presidential clout and has rescheduled her primetime special, "Oprah's Legends Ball."

I had been set to air tonight, but now it's being bumped back a week. Winfrey made the announcement on her Web site with full programming details at oprah.com. The event honors African-American women who paved the way for others.

Fascinating the way the world works there.

Hey, the biggest car on the road is going the way of the dinosaur. Our Susan Lisovicz has that story from the New York Stock Exchange.

Susan, good morning.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: And lots of people aren't mourning the demise of this one, Daryn. If you look at Sierra Club's Web site, hummerdinger.org, the dinosaurs are laughing about the demise of the Hummer. A sign of the times, perhaps.

General Motors saying that it will stop selling the gargantuan Hummer H1. That, of course, is the SUV based on the military's Humvee vehicle.

GM says its decision is not based on high gas prices, even though it costs about $150 to fill the H1's two tanks and it gets only 10 miles per gallon. Of course you can afford the car's $140,000 price tag, you could probably afford to pay for the gas. But there aren't many buyers these days for them.

Just 374 Hummer H1s were sold last year, and less than 100 in the first four months of this year. This is not the end of the Hummer, however. Over the past few years, GM has introduced the slightly smaller H2 and H3 models. They get slightly more miles per gallon, but not much.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

LISOVICZ: And that's a quick look at what's happening here on Wall Street.

Daryn, back to you.

KAGAN: Susan, thank you.

Another money matter, especially for seniors. Thirteen hours and counting, seniors. Midnight tonight is the deadline for seniors to sign up for the new Medicare prescription drug plan. Government health officials say about five million seniors eligible for the drug benefit have not signed up.

If you do not enroll today, you may have to pay extra when you do. President Bush has rejected calls to extend the deadline. The government estimates that the average participant will save about $1,100 with this drug plan.

Pretty in pink.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you like my dress?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love your dress. You look beautiful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: The floodwaters of Katrina couldn't wash away dreams to dress up for a New Orleans high school prom. A heart-warming story coming up on LIVE TODAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: More now on new thaws first heard here on CNN in the last hour. The U.S. intends to restore full diplomatic ties with the country of Libya. This after more than a quarter century without those ties.

Now, you might remember that Libya was held responsible for the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103. That was back in 1988, and it claimed more than 270 lives. Most of those were Americans. So concern today, perhaps, by some of the family members of those who lost their lives aboard Pan Am Flight 103 that this is too soon to restore diplomatic ties with Libya.

Assistant Secretary of State David Welch addressed those concerns earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DAVID WELCH, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: Libya is out of the terrorism business and that has saved additional lives. The family families' concerns, I don't think, in terms of the emotional damage to them, speaking as a parent of children, I don't think we could ever really address those. And I want to repeat that I have a lot of sympathy for their loss, having lost a friend myself aboard Pan Am 103.

That said, the requirements we put in front of the government of Libya to address this issue have been met. Libyans, for example, were asked to address the compensation question. And the legal representatives of the Pan Am 103 families have worked out an arrangement directly with Libya to address that request for compensation.

We, the U.S. government, we're not part of that negotiation. At their request, we were not part of it, but we did support those efforts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: And today's announcement is a culmination of three years of negotiations. A little bit of what you heart the secretary of state talk about right there. The big move, the first big move came when Libya agreed to dismantle its nuclear weapons program.

These scenes are from New England, where the water is rising and the rain just keeps coming. In some areas, roads are impassable and rivers are flooding their banks. If that's not enough, forecasters say the worst may be yet to come.

Our Dan Lothian is on flood watch in Peabody, Massachusetts.

Now, it looks -- I don't know if you moved places from last hour, Dan, or if the water is going down a little bit, but it doesn't look as high on your legs as it did the last hour.

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we moved a little bit. When we're over this side, the water still remains relatively deep. And right behind me here, it's probably a few inches right in this area, it goes to about one foot to two feet. And then if you go over to the side, it gets much deeper than that. But the rain continues to fall.

We haven't seen a whole lot of sort of increase in water volume in this area here, but nonetheless, there is still a lot of water left in this town square area. It does remain closed.

The government buildings, the businesses in this area are closed because some of them have gotten a lot of water into the basement area. And we can see pumps working to remove some of the water out at this moment.

To my left here, your right, we have the National Guard. They have created sort of a ring around the town square area here to keep folks from driving in to the roads that have flooded out. National Guard troops involved in other areas across, not only Massachusetts, but also New Hampshire, in particular, putting a lot of sandbags in some of the sensitive areas like the dams to keep the water from flowing over those dams and perhaps destabilizing them as well.

Back to you.

KAGAN: All right. Dan Lothian, soggy, in New England today, but doing a great job. Thank you.

LOTHIAN: That's right.

KAGAN: Jacqui Jeras also doing a great job looking at what's in store today for New England and the rest of the country -- Jacqui.

JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Hey, Daryn. A lot more wet weather, unfortunately, continuing to stream into this area.

(WEATHER REPORT)

KAGAN: All right, Jacqui. Thank you.

Florida is on gator patrol. Coming up, the hunt for killer gators following three deadly attacks in less than a week.

And renewed fears and panic. A volcano in Indonesia grows more violent. Look at those pictures. But will there be a major eruption? The latest coming up on LIVE TODAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: We've been so focused on Washington D.C. as we talk about President Bush's speech tonight at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. But there's also a lot of concern about the impact of troops on U.S. border towns.

Our Keith Oppenheim joins us. He is along the border in El Paso, Texas.

Keith, good morning. What are they saying there?

KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a pretty cool reception to this idea. Let me show you where I am, Daryn. I'm across from the Cordova Bridge. It's one of the connections between El Paso, Texas and Juarez, Mexico, and this area, by the way, is one of the largest population centers along an international border for anywhere in the world, a good place to talk to people about Mexican immigration in particular.

And this morning, while we spoke to people in El Paso, largely of Mexican heritage, they really felt rather uncomfortable with the idea of National Guard troops assisting the border patrol. And even though we explained it's our understanding that these troops would be in a support role, they still felt that the idea was either a political ploy or too militaristic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think the National Guards will do anything differently, other than send the wrong message. I mean, other countries already don't like us because of us invading Iraq and other things. And now we're adding Army, so to speak, or at least what looks like armies, to our borders.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why now? Why until now? I mean, this has been going on forever and ever, and now all of a sudden someone wants to do something about it?

OPPENHEIM: All of a sudden put troops on the border? You don't like that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, like I said, if it's not broken, why fix it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OPPENHEIM: Clearly, There are some people in the United States in particular that feel that the system is broken and needs to be fixed.

And just to talk about numbers for a second, Daryn, it's our understanding that there are 11,000 Border Patrol agents along the U.S./Mexico border, and also in Canada, but the lion's share of Border Patrol agents are down here. And if we add several thousand National Guard troops, we'll find out exactly what that number is tonight, in President Bush's speech, perhaps, but that would be a significant bolster to that Border Patrol number, if there were that number of National Guard troops coming along to the border to help.

KAGAN: All right, Keith Oppenheim in El Paso, Texas, thank you.

And to be clear, we're hearing the word from President Bush's speech, Border Patrol would actually be doing the work along the border, and the National Guard troops would be there in a support role only.

Let's talk with two people on different perspectives on immigration reform. Dan Stein is the president of the Federation for American Immigration Reform. Arturo Rodrigez is with the United Farm Workers.

Gentlemen, good morning.

DAN STEIN, PRESIDENT, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: Good to be here.

ARTURO RODRIGEZ, UNITED FARM WORKERS: Good morning.

KAGAN: It's great to have you here.

We'd like to get your perspective on this idea that we're hearing from President Bush that you add National Guard troops in a support role so that the Border Patrol can do more of guarding the U.S. border. Dan, first to you. Are you encouraged by that idea?

STEIN: The idea certainly has merit. The question is why now and why -- is this timed to try to influence the legislation in Congress? The president is talking about a temporary, temporary increase in increase in National Guard in exchange for a permanent, permanent amnesty.

KAGAN: So you think it's a little bait and switch?

STEIN: This is a president who has failed to ask Congress for the authorized funding levels for Border Patrol agents year after year. A president who has shown absolute disregard for enforcing U.S. immigration laws. Why does he think in order to get the American people to swallow a massive amnesty with massive fraud that he's going to put some National Guard troops there for a couple of months. And he told Vicente fox it was only for a little while. Why does he think we're going to accept that in exchange for a permanent amnesty that rewards lawbreakers.

KAGAN: So not enough for you.

Arturo, what do you think about this idea of using the National Guard to supplement the Border Patrol so they can concentrate more on the border?

ARTURO RODRIGEZ, UNITED FARM WORKERS: Well, we realize that border enforcement has to be part of the solution. But the real issue is that how are we going to take care of the millions of Americans that have come to this country that have worked hard? We need to create a program that really provides earned legalization for these individuals. There will be national security checks for them, background checks. There's no way that this particular legislation would involve any convicted felons or terrorists, so that really is what essentially has to be dealt with.

KAGAN: So what I think is interesting here, we have you two gentlemen on different sides of the issue, but it sounds like there's some agreement here. You both agree that border enforcement is necessary. This might not be the permanent answer, but the big, big question is, what do you do about the people who are already here? And on that, I know that you have very different ideas on what should happen there.

To you, Dan.

STEIN: Well, definitely.

KAGAN: Let's let Dan go.

RODRIGEZ: OK.

STEIN: You've to keep in mind that the Senate bill does -- the administration is not endorsing a particular bill, but the Senate bill would actually double overall immigration, and take us to 500 million, half a billion people, by 2050. Not only that, it does not punish employers. If you want to see us get control of immigration, punish employers, take away their charters, really send some folks to jail who have been working with smugglers. You've got to enforce the law in the interior. That is simply not there.

KAGAN: And, Dan, what do you do with the 12 million who are here?

STEIN: Look, you're going to have deport somebody. Now we're hardly deporting anybody. You have to step up deportation and prove detention in the interior, beef up investigators, put in the deterrents at the site. You're going to have to step up deportation. The vast majority of those here illegally will leave of their own accord with a stepped up, meaningful interior enforcement. There's simply no reason why we should be talking about people who are here illegally now. The first priority of the nation is to start getting our laws respected and to restore credibility to the immigration system.

There's no reason to discuss amnesty for anybody here right now. We did that once, and all it did was produce a tsunami, tidal wave of more illegal immigrants. Deal with that question five, six years down the line, after you get control of immigration.

KAGAN: Arturo, you have a different take on this.

RODRIGEZ: Definitely. I mean, this is not an amnesty. What they're talking about is an earned-legalization program. Immigrants will have to pass background checks. They will have to go through -- there'll be no convicted felons who will be allowed to come into the country, no terrorists. They're going to have to pay fines. They're going to have to demonstrate that they have a documented work history in the United States. Immigrants today are doing the jobs no one else wants to do. They're working in agriculture. Eight percent to 90 percent of agricultural workers in the United States today are undocumented workers. Our agricultural system would be destroyed if we did not utilize immigrants to work in agriculture.

KAGAN: What about the idea of what Dan was saying, now is not the time to talk about amnesty; now is the time to crack down and get the laws in order, and then down the line you can talk amnesty, or not.

RODRIGEZ: We have to.

KAGAN: Go ahead.

RODRIGEZ: We cannot ignore the undocumented immigrants that are here in this country today. They are a part of our American economy. We would not be honoring American values to ask immigrants today that have worked hard, that have done those jobs that other Americans do not want to do for whatever reason and try to deport them. They're going to stay in the shadows. They have their families here. They are an integral part of the communities here. It's just not a practical solution, and it will not honor America's values.

KAGAN: One final question for both of you, would you both agree that this is at crisis level?

STEIN: The point is, the American immigration system has simply no credibility. A so-called guest worker program...

KAGAN: Is it a crisis?

STEIN: It's a total and complete crisis.

KAGAN: It is a crisis.

STEIN: If the Senate bill were to pass, we would be simply overwhelmed and we would forever lose control of immigration.

KAGAN: Arturo, is it a crisis at this point?

RODRIGEZ: Well, definitely there's a broken immigration system in our country. We need to do something. We need to take action now and deal with the immigrants that are here in our country today, give them an opportunity for a pathway to citizenship. And that way, we'll really be dealing in an affirmative way with this issue. And I think the American public really supports doing something to earn -- provide earned legalization.

KAGAN: Well, this we do know: that the American public is fascinated and very invested emotionally in this topic. And also we do know we had a civilized and intelligent conversation. For that, I thank both of you gentlemen.

STEIN: Thank you.

RODRIGEZ: Well, thank you, very much.

KAGAN: Arturo Rodrigez and Dan Stein, thank you, gentlemen, for your time.

The search is on in the waters of Florida following three deadly attacks in less than a week. Coming up, tracking killer alligators in the state where people love the water.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Are these people drunk or just trying to get some sleep? Some people say they are driving against their will while under the influence of a popular sleeping aid.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta explains this dangerous side effects as part of our sleep series this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The man in this police video looks drunk, but he may actually be asleep. He says he was sleep driving the night he was arrested after taking two Ambien tablets.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I went to bed. I was reading. The next thing I know, there's a policeman at my car door.

GUPTA: He doesn't want us to use his name or show his face. According to him, he doesn't even remember getting into the car. His case is on appeal after being convicted with driving under the influence.

Dr. Carlos Schenck says he has documented 32 cases of people with no previous history of sleepwalking who began sleepwalking, including walking, eating, even driving while sleeping under the influence of Ambien.

DR. CARLOS SCHENCK, MN. REGIONAL SLEEP DISORDERS CTR.: Because Ambien does increase the percent of slow wave sleep, which is a stage of sleep that promotes sleepwalking.

GUPTA: Doctors wrote more than 26 million prescriptions for Ambien last year, making it far and away the most used sleeping pill.

In a statement, Ambien's manufacturer, Sanofi-Aventis, says it could not comment on specific cases. Adding this, "It is important to emphasize that although sleepwalking may occur during treatment with Ambien, it may not necessarily be caused by it. It is difficult to determine with certainty whether a particular instance of sleepwalking is drug induced, spontaneous in origin or a result of an underlying disorder."

There is no large study to gauge the risk. But for the vast majority of Ambien users, Dr. Schenck says, don't worry, and to follow the warning labels provided with prescriptions.

SCHENCK: Even a sip of alcohol with Ambien could be dangerous. So I would strongly discourage any use, even a sip.

GUPTA: And if you ever do sleepwalk after taking the drug, you should stop taking it. This man wishes he had.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had no intention of driving. And I would just like people to know that, in particular the judge that hears my appeal.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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KAGAN: President Bush will address the nation tonight at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, coverage you'll see live here on CNN. He intends to talk about immigration reform. Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove was speaking earlier today, making a speech at the American Enterprise Institute.

Our John King was there and had a chance to ask Rove about what the president plans to say tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KARL ROVE, PRES. BUSH'S POLITICAL ADVISER: Tune in tonight. The president is going to give a -- is going to talk about a comprehensive approach to this. This is a problem of security. It is a problem of our economy. It is a problem of compassion. It is a problem that we have to attack on several different fronts simultaneously if we hope to resolve it. And he's going to talk about a comprehensive solution.

I think it's important for the country. I think that it's important for our economy. It's also important for people who want to come here and earn -- to put something on their family's table. And it's important for us to deal with the question of the people who are already here. How are we going to deal with them in comprehensive fashion? The president is going to lay out some proposals tonight and a comprehensive vision.

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What about the...

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: And CNN will continue to bring you full coverage of immigration reform and the president's speech. Leading up to tonight, 7:00 p.m. Eastern, Wolf is here with "THE SITUATION ROOM." Then the speech at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, and then Lou Dobbs with a special edition of his program at 8:30 p.m. Eastern, and then on to "LARRY KING LIVE" and a special edition of "ANDERSON COOPER," who is in Chicago tonight.

Well, you can buy just about anything on the Internet, including, it seems, a 4-week-old baby. Authorities say a couple in Mexico tried to sell the baby. They are now in custody and being investigated for other child trafficking.

CNN's Carol Lin reports on the sting operation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAROL LIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Spanish-speaking network Univision sent a crew to the viewer's home to videotape his online chat with the women. What they saw was shocking. According to the station, with the cameras rolling, the woman who claimed to be the baby's mother said she wanted to sell a 4-week-old boy. They say she even used a Web camera to show the baby to the man she thought was a potential buyer.

The station set up a meeting in Monterrey, Mexico. A reporter from Univision's sister network in Mexico, Televisa, posed as the potential buyer. That's him, holding the baby. The woman, wearing the striped jersey, is the alleged seller. The sale didn't happen, but at this point, the reporters say they knew the woman was serious. They called in U.S. immigration officials, who alerted Mexican law enforcement.

Just three days later, they arranged a phony sale using the undercover reporter as the buyer. U.S. authorities say the woman and a man were arrested. They, and the baby, are in custody of the Mexican government.

Carol Lin, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: And now to Indonesia, where there is renewed panic over a possible full-fledged eruption of a volcano on the island of Java. Mount Merapi is sending hot gas clouds and burning rocks down its flanks today, triggering a fresh wave of evacuations. Many villagers had refused until now to leave their homes. Officials say the activity has reached its highest level yet. The volcano last erupted in 1994, killed 60 people. About 1,300 died in an eruption in 1930.

Florida is on gator patrol. Coming up, the hunt for killer gators following three deadly attacks in less than a week.

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KAGAN: Traps are set in Florida following three deadly alligator attacks in less than a week. The attacks occurred hundreds of miles apart, spanning from Lake George to the north of St. Petersburg, and near Fort Lauderdale. Wildlife experts say they don't know what's provoking the attacks.

CNN's Carol Costello has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The bodies of two more alligator attack victims were found in Florida on Sunday. Twenty-three-year-old Annemarie Campbell was visiting from Tennessee. She was attacked while swimming at a recreation area near Lake George southeast of Gainesville. She went into the water with three friends, got separated and the friends found her in the gator's mouth.

CAT KELLY, FLA. FISH & WILDLIFE COMM.: They risked their life. They went to do everything that they possibly could. And I understand that they were jabbing at eyes and trying to pry its jaws.

COSTELLO: It was too late. Trappers believe she was killed by an adult alligator between seven and nine feet long.

KELLY: This is Mother's Day and you -- our hearts are with these families.

COSTELLO: Authorities near St. Petersburg believe an alligator killed 43-year-old Judy Cooper. Her body was found Sunday in a canal behind a house.

FRED FERDERBER, FOUND VICTIM'S BODY: Just out walking my dog and I went in the backyard and saw what looked like a pair of pants floating in the backyard in the pond. And I walked up closer and then I saw there were a pair of sneakers attached to it. And my daughter and I went out there with a stick and pushed on it and it turned out to be a woman.

COSTELLO: Cooper's body had been in the water for about three days. Officials say an alligator bit her several times. On Saturday, wildlife officers captured a nine-foot alligator they believe killed 28-year-old Suarez Jimenez near Fort Lauderdale. She had been out jogging. Authorities say she'd been attacked on the bank, then dragged into the water. Authorities found two human arms inside the gator's belly.

While the string of fatal attacks may be rare, wildlife officials say caution should never go out of season because alligators can strike quickly from shallow waters.

KELLY: Is there any more room for error -- I mean worry tonight versus other nights? No, this is -- you're living in Florida, you need to be careful.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: So what is going on in Florida? For answers, let's check in with Todd Hardwick. He traps alligators for a living. Hardwick joins me on the phone from Miami.

Todd, good morning.

TODD HARDWICK, ANIMAL TRAPPER: Good morning.

KAGAN: Are you trapping alligators today?

HARDWICK: We are out, and we've been out all the last five days, just about 24/7 since the first incident occurred.

KAGAN: So what's going on? Is business up? Are alligators more busy, or are people reporting it and it's more in the news?

HARDWICK: I would say that it's probably all of the above. More people are reporting gators that normally they may have been a little more tolerant of in their community, smaller gators especially. And now with all the media attention on what has left even a veteran trapper like myself stunned. I mean, I have no idea why we had three fatalities in five or six days. So certainly people are now being more cautious. They're requesting the removal of alligators for, you know, insurance, if anything else. They figure if the gators are moved, we'll be better off, even if probably was not a legitimate threat; we'd rather err on the side of caution. So a lot of gators are being called in for removal all over the state. I mean, everybody is very busy.

KAGAN: Is it hype, or do you think it's smart to clear out those gators?

HARDWICK: Well, certainly it's not hype when you've had three fatalities in a week. And in the past, we would go sometimes an entire year without a fatality, sometimes even three, four, five years without a fatality.

I'm literally stunned. I have no answer as to why this has happened this week. I mean, certainly we have some things that we all will mention. It is the dry season in Florida, so the alligators are more concentrated in the rivers, the canals and the lakes. It is also the peak of the alligator-breeding season. But you know, it's alligator-breeding season every year.

KAGAN: That's true.

HARDWICK: And we've had droughts in the past. So the things we might say could be an influence this year, we've had that before and we never had three fatalities.

The bottom line is this, every year there are more alligators, and there are more people in Florida.

KAGAN: And that makes for a bad combination. I hate to cut you off there, but we are out of time. Todd Hardwick, animal trapper, be safe out there, and thank you for taking time for talking with us.

I'm Daryn Kagan. International news is up next.

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