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American Morning

Nathaniel Brazill in Court to Receive Sentencing

Aired July 26, 2001 - 14:03   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NATALIE ALLEN, CNN ANCHOR: What kind of sentence should you impose on a 14-year-old boy who killed his teacher? That's the decision a Florida judge is weighing as he listens to testimony today in the sentencing hearing for Nathaniel Brazill. The boy was convicted of shooting 35-year-old Barry Grunow on the last day of school more than a year ago.

The slain teacher's wife, Pam, said she could not recommend a sentence, but the teacher's brother Steven called for the maximum -- life in prison.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVEN GRUNOW, VICTIM'S BROTHER: Given the fact that this young man was able to do what he did, which was shoot my brother in the face, track his body to the ground with the gun. The fact that he was able to do this as an adolescent, it's scary to think of what he could do as an adult, in my opinion.

Barry is dead and he is going to stay dead no matter what sentence this court hands down, and Pam faces her life as a widow with two small children. And Sam and Leanne (ph) won't have their dad with them ever. And it's -- Barry was a remarkable dad, I think, and a great guy.

And it's a-- it's -- it's a an inexcusable thing that Pam will be -- Pam is widow with two young children because of what this young man did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALLEN: An emotional day in West Palm Beach, Florida. CNN's Mark Potter is covering it for us. He joins us now with the latest -- Mark.

MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Natalie, yes, it was an emotional day. Now we're hearing from the defense witnesses in the case. And we expect to hear, some time this afternoon, from Nathaniel Brazill himself. His lawyer says that he will make a statement to the court. And during that time he will also apologize to the family of Barry Grunow, the Lake Worth Middle School teacher that he shot and killed.

his parents are also scheduled to speak to the court and the anticipation there is that they will ask the judge for leniency in terms of the sentencing. The first defense witness to testify was an educator who interviewed Brazill. She said on the day of the shooting he was suffering emotional distress because of some problems at home that he had been witnessing.

The second witness, the man on the stand right now whose name is James Gabranio (ph) , a child psychologist is also saying that he is -- that he suffered stress because of problems at home. He talked about the effects and he said that it appeared that Nathaniel at the time of the shooting was beginning to unravel emotionally and if this event didn't occur, something else might have occurred on down the line. The young man, he said, emotionally was in trouble.

Earlier as we noted the prosecution presented its case with very emotional testimony about the life and the death of Barry Grunow. As we noted, again, several members of the Grunow family are urging the judge to impose a life prison sentence. The judge could do that if he so chooses but at the very least, 14-year-old Nathaniel Brazill will face a 25-year minimum mandatory sentence in this case.

He's being sentenced as an adult under Florida's strict gun use law. Natalie, back to you.

ALLEN: And Mark, does that mean even that even though he is 14 he will go to an adult facility immediately?

POTTER: He will go to an adult processing center near Miami. We know that. He will be separated from the adult inmates, but he will go to the South Florida processing center. After that it's not known. There are two options, we are told, by the prison officials. He can either go into the adult prison system where they have four small prisons within it devoted to juveniles.

Or, as in the case of Lionel Tate, the 14-year-old we saw several months ago, he could be transferred into the juvenile system and go to one of their facilities. We are told that that decision has not yet been made. But those are the options.

ALLEN: All right, and we still may here from Nathaniel Brazill today in court. Thank you, Mark Potter. For more on the story, let's go to Lou. WATERS: And no matter the final decision reached by the judge after the sentencing hearing we know it will be a long prison term no matter what because Nathaniel Brazill was tried as an adult. That practice continues to be very controversial, and today we're going to hear anther argument on both sides of the issue. Herald Price Fahringer is a criminal defense attorney. He joins us from New York. He opposes trying children as adults.

Jeff Howard is a former New Hampshire attorney general who says the procedure is justified. Gentlemen, there was even mixed feelings about the sentence from the victim's family today. The victim's brother said lock him away. The victim's widow, Pamela Grunow, said she didn't have the wisdom to make that kind of judgment.

Why does it seem that apparently America as a society is less willing to cut juveniles some slack these days? Mr. Howard, what do you think?

JEFF HOWARD, FORMER N.H. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, Lou as a state attorney general I had occasion to attend autopsies of murder victims and I can tell you that I didn't have to attend very many of those autopsies before I came to believe in my soul that there are monsters on the face of this planet who, the things they would do are so unspeakable that, in fact, they must have forfeited their right to walk among us.

I believe that state legislatures have came to the same conclusion. The harsh reality, Lou, is that some of those criminals are young.

WATERS: What has changed? It used to be juveniles until age 18. It's not that way anymore.

HOWARD: With respect to many, many offenses I believe and I think most prosecutors believe that certainly children and many teenagers should be treated in a different system where the emphasis should be on rehabilitation and treatment.

But when it comes to these most heinous atrocities that are committed by people who really have become hardened criminals at a young age, then society needs protection. We do need to deter the conduct of other people and there really isn't much chance for rehabilitation in my opinion.

WATERS: Mr. Fahringer, make fault with that.

HERALD PRICE FAHRINGER: I'm very much committed to the major premise of the juvenile justice system which is that people of that age are redeemable. They are in a malleable developmental stage and they can -- their lives can be salvaged and they can become useful citizens. That's proven and millions and millions of children have gone through the juvenile justice system and been returned to society as constructive law abiding citizens.

I don't think we should forfeit that, we should give that up for a person who committed a more serious crime. The standard shouldn't be what was the crime that was committed? The standard should be the nature of the offender and whether he is a person who can be redeemed, rather than putting him away for the rest of his life. That's just wrong.

And furthermore, I don't think prosecutors should be making the decision whether a person should be treated as an adult or a youth. That should be done by a judge.

WATERS: What about that, Mr. Howard? The judge after the sentencing hearing is going to make some determination about whether Nathaniel Brazill can be rehabilitated? How does a judge reach that decision?

HOWARD: There really are, I believe, two things that need to be considered: not only the attributes of the offender him or herself, but also the nature of the crime. The bottom line may be that on balancing the scales you come out in favor of protecting society. And if the judge makes the determination that society cannot be protected, based upon what we know about a particular offender at the time of sentencing, then it is the judge's solemn duty to protect society so that we don't have additional victims. That's a moral judgment that gets made by legislators and judges and it's an appropriate judgment to be made.

WATERS: Mr. Fahringer?

FAHRINGER: Well, I just believe that essentially, Nathaniel Brazill deserves the benefits of the juvenile justice system the same way any other juvenile does. And this whole practice of taking them out -- 665 children were tried as adults in Florida last year and deprived of the benefits of the juvenile justice system.

That is just wrong, and I think what you have running through the bottom of all of this, and it is an alarming trait, is vengeance, that we have to punish these children that may be -- may be redeemed and can be useful and productive citizens.

WATERS: Mr. Fahringer do you think that if Nathaniel Brazill had appeared more sympathetic. We know there is a public relations element to all legal proceedings these days, if he had been a more sympathetic person, that there might have been a different outcome?

FAHRINGER: No. I don't place much emphasis upon that. That's a reality psychologically, but I think that both Jeff and I would agree what you really have to do is look at him as what he is. I don't think you can judge a 14-year-old by his outward appearances. You know, a more sophisticated person might have put on a face that's much different. You can't expect that of a young person.

WATERS: Thank you both, Herold Price Fahringer, Jeff Howard, we will hear more about this as this debate never seems to end.

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