Return to Transcripts main page

American Morning

Controversy Erupts Over Washington State Firefighter Deaths

Aired August 02, 2001 - 10:20   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DONNA KELLEY, CNN ANCHOR: As a Wyoming wildfire dies down, the final residents, under a mandatory evacuation order, can return to their homes today near Jackson. They'll be able to go back about 40 minutes from now we hear, actually. In the meantime, a massive demobilization of firefighters is expected to begin later today. The fire is about 80 percent contained. It's consumed nearly 4,500 acres.

And now to the controversy surrounding another wildfire, a fatal one in Washington state. Several firefighters died in the 30 mile fire and now some are blaming their deaths on a federal endangered species law.

CNN's Lillian Kim has more on the investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LILLIAN KIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The 30 mile fire in north central Washington state grew fast and furious in a matter of hours. Four firefighters killed in the line of duty. Now, three weeks after their deaths, questions are surfacing. Among them, did the Endangered Species Act put crews at risk? A Colorado congressman charges that dispatchers delayed sending a helicopter to drop water on the flames for nearly two hours because a nearby water source contained threatened fish.

REP. SCOTT MCINNIS (R), COLORADO: And that is that frankly the Forest Service was recklessly cautious about the Endangered Species Act, did not allow field authority to take place and as a result water drops were delayed and I think as a result and a contributing factor that the disaster took place and we lost four firefighters.

KIM: 21-year-old Devin Weaver was one of the four who died. His father is demanding answers.

KEN WEAVER, FATHER OF VICTIM: And if endangered species are ever put above the value of human life, I think we need to rewrite the law.

KIM (on camera): The U.S. Forest Service isn't responding directly to the charges. Instead, an investigative team is trying to determine what happened in that deadly blaze to prevent it from happening again. That report should be completed in about two to three weeks.

RANDY SHEPARD, U.S. FOREST SERVICE: That's going to require going through the entire investigation process to pull together all the different pieces of information and provide it as a comprehensive, complete and accurate account. Until that's ready, we really can't comment on these other individual pieces of allegations and parts of the picture.

KIM: As for environmental groups, they defend the Endangered Species Act, claiming the law has no relation to fighting fires.

JAY WATSON, WILDERNESS SOCIETY: Because in an emergency situation like this, firefighting, Forest Service air tankers do not need to get any kind of special authorization to siphon water out of the river. So I think it's an overstatement of a case.

KIM: Whatever contributed to the firefighters' deaths, families hope to get some answers soon.

WEAVER: I'm not trying to bring my son back. That's not going to happen. My whole focus is to keep anybody else's son from going where mine is.

KIM: Lillian Kim, CNN, Yakima, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Well, as this probe continues into the firefighters' deaths, is there now a debate over whether concerns over federal regulations cost the firefighters their lives? Let's take a look at that issue. We're joined this morning by two guests. R.J. Smith is the senior environmental scholar at the Competitive Enterprise Institute in Washington, D.C.

R.J. SMITH, COMPETITIVE ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: Good morning.

HARRIS: And also joining us is Todd True. He is a senior staff attorney with Earth Justice Legal Defense Fund. He joins from Seattle.

Mr. Smith, I want to begin with you this morning. Would you agree with the man in that report we just saw there who blames the deaths of these firefighters on this Endangered Species Act?

SMITH: Well, I think it's perhaps a little bit early to be certain. But this is a tragedy that has been coming down the line for a long while. We've all known that the Endangered Species Act has taken precedence over all human activities and something like this was bound to happen.

Now, the one gentleman who said that firefighters can take precedence first, they don't have to ask permission, well, firefighters don't know that. They all live in fear of the Endangered Species Act. They all live in fear that they'll make a mistake, that it will threaten their careers. And the very fact that there was this long delay, people felt they had to get permission to find out if they could dip their tanks into the river because there were endangered fish in that river, shows the absurdity of the Endangered Species Act and that it's high time, as Mr. Weaver said, it's high time that we reexamine the whole intent and purpose and success and failure of the Endangered Species Act.

HARRIS: Does that sound like a fair argument, Mr. True? It sounds like a pretty reasonable one here.

TODD TRUE, EARTH JUSTICE: Well, I think it's just based on a mistake of fact. I think you heard from the Forest Service and you've seen in the news accounts the Endangered Species Act does not stand in the way of protecting human life in an emergency situation like that and it's absolutely unfortunate that some people are trying to convert this tragedy into a political attack on the Endangered Species Act.

The Forest Service has the authority to go get the water to protect human lives. You don't blame the law if a police officer doesn't understand that burglary is illegal. You shouldn't blame the Endangered Species Act where the Forest Service simply failed to get the water it was authorized to get.

HARRIS: So this is not a problem with the act, per se, it's a problem with the people who are enforcing it or the people who are working around it? Is that what you're saying?

TRUE: I'm saying that there appears to have been a problem in the Forest Service understanding what it could do and that certainly is a tragedy. I think when the investigation is done, what you'll find out is that the law wasn't the problem, there were a series of very tragic misjudgments.

HARRIS: Mr. Smith...

SMITH: I think we've had examples all over the country through the whole history of the act. All we have to do is go back to 1993 and the fires in Riverside County in southern California, the Stevens kangaroo rat fires that were down there. When the state of California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection told all the land owners that the fire season was about to come. They were required by California law to clear firebreaks around all their homes and barns down to bare mineral soil or else they will be penalized and fined.

And then the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service came in and said no, no, no, no. If you create any firebreaks around your home that cause any possible harm or disturbance to the endangered Stevens kangaroo rats then you're going to be facing fines of up to $100,000 and/or a year in jail.

Nobody knew what to do. They all lived in fear of different government agencies after them. The fire broke out and swept through and burned 19 homes to the ground.

HARRIS: Well, the issue this morning...

SMITH: All because of the Endangered Species Act.

HARRIS: Well, the...

TRUE: I don't think you can blame the Endangered Species Act for what a wildfire does. I think the situation is very different from that. The act has worked well to provide accountability for our actions and that's really what it's aimed at, is to be sure that in situations that are not an emergency, that are not involving the risk of human life and fire, that we provide some balance in the way we manage our natural resources. And I think the act works very well to do that.

I think the situation you have right now in the Klamath Basin out here in the northwest, in Oregon and California, indicates what, the kind of situation you usually face with the Endangered Species Act where there are people who are being protected by that act, where there are people on the other side of the issue. But the act itself is not the problem.

HARRIS: Gentlemen, we're going to have to leave it there this morning. We wish we did have the time to argue this whole thing out fully, but as you can see, it is a very, very entangled web there.

R.J. Smith and Todd True, we thank you very much for your time this morning.

TRUE: Thank you.

SMITH: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com