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American Morning
Human Rights Groups Are Protesting the Use of Cluster Bombs
Aired November 01, 2001 - 09:46 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Some human rights groups are critical of one weapon the U.S. is using in the war on terrorism. The Pentagon says it's now using cluster bombs against Taliban targets in Afghanistan. Critics, including officials of the Princess Diana Memorial Fund are calling on the U.S. and Great Britain to stop, saying cluster bombs pose a deadly threat to Afghan civilians. Joie Chen joining us from CNN Center in Atlanta to explain just how cluster bombs work. Good morning, Joie.
JOIE CHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Miles. You know we have put a lot of emphasis in trying to explain a lot to our viewer about the most high-tech precision weaponry that's being used in the operation now, as laser-guided missiles and smart bombs, as they are sometimes known.
But this operation is also relying on older technology, brute- force sort of weapons. The "dumb bomb" technology that really originated in the past. Take a look at this. Cluster bombs in use extensively in major conflicts since the 1960s. This video from the Britain Royal Air Force. A test run -- a drop of some cluster bombs. And if you take a look at it, you can see the bomblets raining down. And a lot of them you can see, sort of shadowing in the distance, the parachutes that bring them down to the ground, hopefully to sort of guide their location. They do explode, as you see, as they hit the ground.
U.S. troops used these, thousands of them, in the Gulf War. But they were first used quite extensively in Vietnam. The Brits used them quite heavily in the Balkans. Why did they use them? Well, the enemy is not located in a single stationary spot sometimes. That makes it more difficult. So the cluster bombs you see there fall over a broader range, a broader area. A target without a specific location or maybe a target on the move. Maybe some vehicle transport, armored vehicles.
This is animation that explains a little bit about how cluster bombs work. You see this here, the CBU-87 cluster bomb, carried beneath the wing of a U.S. F-18 warplane. Now if we move this animation along, the jet takes off and it drops the cluster bomb over a targeted area. And then, at a predetermined altitude, the cluster bomb just opens up. You reveal here, a whole bunch of about 200 sort of soda-can type bomblets. These are sub-munitions. And there are different kinds of bomblets, as well, that can fall away from these cluster bombs. The bomblets then disburse. They fall in something of an oblong pattern, not a traditional round sort of pattern. The width of the spread can vary on a number of things.
Some of these do parachute to the ground. There are different kinds of those, but the small charge on some of them can puncture five inches of steel, explode into hundreds of pieces of shrapnel flying at bullet-like speeds. Most explode. Part of the problem, anywhere from 5 to 10 percent of the bomblets don't explode right away, but they are still dangerous. The bomblets effectively become land mines once hit the ground and stay there. They can remain dangerous for years. In many cases these are quite colorful, in some cases attractive to children.
The other thing critics don't like about this kind of munition they have a wide array of spread, and that means they pose risk to people and things that they are not necessarily meant to hit. But military experts they do have a useful purpose. Those moving targets, for example, we referred to earlier. Still, even our military analyst Ret. Gen. Don Shepperd acknowledges it is a nasty weapon for a nasty sort of war. Miles?
O'BRIEN: CNN's Joie Chen at CNN center. Thank you very much.
Last week, the Princess of Wales Memorial Fund wrote a letter asking that the coalition stop using cluster bombs in Afghanistan. The fund is best known for its support of the international campaign to ban land mines. And campaign coordinator is Jody Williams, a Nobel Peace Prize laureate. She joins us now from Washington. Good to have you with us, Miss Williams.
JODY WILLIAMS, CAMPAIGN COORDINATOR, PRINCESS DIANA MEMORIAL FUND: Good morning.
O'BRIEN: One of the things that sticks out in my mind with cluster bombs is this dud rate of 5 percent. You know, so if there's 200 cluster bombs, and its 5 percent, that means, in theory, there's at least -- well, I have to my do math very quickly.
(LAUGHTER)
WILLIAMS: Too many.
O'BRIEN: That would be about 10 bombs.
WILLIAMS: 10 bombs is 10 too many.
O'BRIEN: 10 bombs per. And you know, that's why I went into television, because of the math thing. But let's press on. And, that means there's a lot of unexploded ordnance on the ground. And I want to just show you a quick graphic, here, to show you how closely these bombs -- which look like yellow soda cans -- there you have it, right there. This is the CBU-87. One of the bomblets, that's Cluster Bomb Unit 87. And that's about the size of soda can, because there's no real scale there.
Now let's move and show you a picture of the food packets which are being dropped in some cases in close proximity. Now, it's yellow and it's square, but nevertheless, if you're a child, this might be a difference without a distinction. I assume that's part of your concern.
WILLIAMS: That is a huge part of the concern, that we are dropping yellow cluster bombs and yellow food packets is certainly going to be confusing to many in Afghanistan. Refugees internally displaced on the move are not going stop and think about which item they might be picking up. They'll bend and pick it up and get blown up. We used a significant cluster bombs in Kosovo, and they have posed a significant problem in the cleanup after the end of that bombing campaign.
O'BRIEN: All right, well, and, unfortunately, this is like bringing coals to Newcastle, because this is one of the most heavily- mined land mine areas in the world. Let's look at a map that we put together just to give people a sense of how densely mined it is. This in the wake of Soviet occupation of a decade and then the succeeding civil war in which the Taliban ultimately gained control.
We're told that there are estimates of between 6 and 10 million antipersonnel or anti-vehicle mines concealed in the hills and mountains of Afghanistan. Curious, is this something that has been high on your list of concerns prior to this whole engagement there and the war on terrorism?
WILLIAMS: Absolutely. We started the campaign to eradicate land mines in 1992, and Afghanistan, until September 12th, had one of the most well developed mine clearance programs in the world with some 5000 de-miners working to try to make that country free of mines. That program was suspended the day after the horrible attacks in New York and Washington. And now the problem is going to be exacerbated with the use of cluster bombs.
O'BRIEN: So, I mean, the point that military planners will say is, you know, and to paraphrase: War is hell. There are bad things that happen when you become involved in engagements, and in not every case can the U.S. use these precision guided, laser-guided, satellite- guided bombs which strike very specific targets. There's a role for this. How do you respond to that argument?
WILLIAMS: Well, I know that during the campaign in the Balkans, the U.S. stopped the use of cluster bombs itself because it recognized the long-term impact far outweighed the immediate utility. I think that military planners have to think beyond the moment. They have to think about the impact on civilians and cleaning up the mess after the conflict is resolved.
O'BRIEN: Now, there is, as I'm told, a technological solution out there. Where essentially these bombs, the ones that would be duds essentially have a shelf life. They short of expire on their own is that a solution?
WILLIAMS: The world did not think so when we negotiated the mine ban treaty. Some countries did think that mines that self-destructed should be exempted, but the majority of the world did not agree with that point of view. If you're de-miner and there is a weapon on the ground, you have to treat it as if a live piece of ammunition or a live mine or live cluster bomb. So a de-miner is going to have to take as much time dealing with that dud as he's going to take dealing with a live weapon. We don't believe that high-tech is the answer.
O'BRIEN: It doesn't necessarily indicate that it's a dud. All right, very good point. Jody Williams is -- leads the international campaign to ban land mines. She's a Nobel Peace Prize laureate. Thanks very much for being with us this morning.
WILLIAMS: Thanks very much.
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