Return to Transcripts main page

American Morning

Homefront Defense Tightens

Aired November 09, 2001 - 09:04   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Since the September 11 attacks, the Justice Department has detained more than 1,000. Now Attorney General John Ashcroft says the department will no longer be putting out reports on the number of detainees. And the attorney general also says he wants to monitor mail and phone calls of prisoners suspected of terrorist ties, which would be suspension of attorney-client privilege.

CNN legal analyst Roger Cossack joins us now, with his insights into this.

Good morning, Roger, how are you this morning?

ROGER COSSACK, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hello, Paula.

ZAHN: So do you want to walk through your analysis with us now, what this means and who is adamantly opposed to it?

COSSACK: Yes, this a major change, and most lawyers will be opposed this -- and believe me, the constitutionality of this is very dubious. Historically, when people are in prison, Paula, they lose a lot of their constitutional rights, but they don't lose their constitutional right to have conversations with their attorneys. What's particularly troubling in this situation is that the attorney general has decided on his own to go ahead and instigate these situations, and many of the people that are in prison right now, most people have no charges whatsoever brought against them. So you have people who are being detained in prison who stand a very good chance of having any conversations that they discuss with their attorneys monitored by the United States government.

Long ago, I was taught that one of the problems in catching criminals is the Bill of Rights, the Fifth Amendment, which stops the government from being able to call someone and have them testify against themselves. But that is what makes this country different. If you start chipping away at these kinds of things, even under most dire circumstances, without some kind of probable cause to believe that there is a discussion going on that hits to the very heart of what this terrorism is, then you start stripping away things which really define America.

ZAHN: Walk us through this transition. This is simply a proposal on the attorney general's part, right?

COSSACK: No, this not a proposal.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Absolutely going to happen?

COSSACK: No, the attorney general has said these are the rules that are in order, and I am placing, by executive fiat, if you will, to put these in order. This is not a proposal; this is now something that is an order.

Historically, let me just tell you that in prisons there are two phones. There is phone number one, which inmates use to call their families. There is a sign over that phone that says these telephone calls can be monitored. Remember Webster Hubble? They listened to that phone call when he talked about his taxes with his wife. That was a big sign that said you talk on this phone, there is a chance you are going to be listened to.

But there is another phone where you speak to your lawyer. That one will not be listened to in. In certain cases, the attorney general has said, cases having to do with terrorism, we will listen in on those phone calls. We are telling you right now we will listen in on phone calls. That really cuts right to heart of criminal justice system in America.

ZAHN: Roger, is there any organized opposition to this, or did this simply catch people off guard?

COSSACK: I think it did catch people off guard. After all, we did see the anti-terrorism bill last week, where we understand there was going to be, under certain circumstances, with a judge's order, perhaps the eavesdropping on telephones, on e-mails, those kinds of things that we were prepared for. This caught people off guard because there wasn't mentioned; this is something that the attorney general has instituted. There are several civil liberties groups -- the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, other groups, and even conservative groups -- I have seen responses of some of the most conservative people in the United States who have said this is a troubling aspect, this cuts right to the heart.

It is an adversary system: it's the government who traditionally, historically, has to prove the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That is the government's that is the government's job. In this situation, what they are doing is finding out, listening in to what defense is, hearing the conversation that goes between defendant and his lawyer, using that information to then go back in court and saying this is what we found out. That is just not right.

ZAHN: We need a brief answer to this one, Roger. What do you suspect the public opinion is out there, at a time when we have heard so many Americans say this is the price you have to pay living here. And even if this detainee is not guilty of something, this is what we've got to do make sure we get the information?

COSSACK: Paula, that is a great question, and the reason that that is a great question is because this is going to require a great deal of education. It is different that since September 11, things have changed in this country: We are under attack, attack that we have never been under in this country before, attack in this country. All of us are frightened. What do you do with a situation in which you have reason to believe, let me give you this hypothetical, that someone you have in custody has absolute knowledge that there is going to be a terrorist attack and knows when that terrorist attack is going to be. What do you do at that person? Do you suspend the rules because you have to protect yourselves?

Like most lawyers, I know questions, I don't know the answers. I think people will have to understand that there are going to be some changes. The question is whether or not this kind of change can be allowed without some kind of strong probable cause showing that this is what's necessary.

ZAHN: I imagine that is something you will continue to debate later on today on TV. We will be looking for you. Thanks for joining us this morning.

COSSACK: My pleasure.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Later today, President Bush is expected to announce the specifics of an expanded role for the National Guard in airport security. He signaled the move during his speech last night in Atlanta.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The government has a responsibility to protect our citizens, and that starts with homeland security. The first attack against America came by plane. And we are now making our airports and airplanes safer. We have posted the National Guard in America's airports and placed undercover air marshals on many flights.

I call on Congress to quickly send me legislation that makes cockpits more secure, baggage screening more thorough, and puts the federal government in charge of all airport screening and security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Putting National Guard troops in airports is intended to make Americans feel safer.

Thelma Gutierrez is at Los Angeles International Air, where security is by no means lax. She is sampling public reaction.

Good morning, Thelma.

THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, this is definitely one of the busiest airports in the entire country. And you can take a look at that line right behind me; you can see that long, long lines are forming early this morning. More than 60 million people travel through LAX each and every year.

Security, as it is everywhere else in the nation, is a huge concern. Since the beginning of October, the National Guard troops have been stationed here at LAX. At first, some thought it would be a little unnerving to see the guards in military uniforms carrying M-16 firearms amongst people who are unarmed; not so many passengers here say. They actually feel safer with increased presence of National Guard, and the president last night said that he hopes to increase that presence.

With me is James Diem (ph), a traveler who lives in Los Angeles and is heading to Chicago. He is here with his wife, Jeanne (ph).

James, what do you think? Do you think that many the federal government should take over airport security?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I, personally, think yes, I think they should. I think I personally would feel a lot more comfortable having the federal government oversee all the airports instead of each independent state overseeing that matter. So I would be a lot more comfortable with that.

GUTIERREZ: Do you feel that security measures are tighter right now, in light of some of the security lapses that we have seen around airports recent days?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are they tighter? It doesn't seem like it. I have seen a couple of armed guards walking around, but aside from that, I haven't seen -- it looks pretty much normal, the way it has always been.

GUTIERREZ: You feel more comfortable traveling now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not a whole lot. Not a whole lot. Sorry to say, but yes. I'm surprised that they are still allowing roadside check-in. I know at the beginning they kind of stopped that, but I guess they got a green light to do that again. But yes, I'm kind of surprised.

GUTIERREZ: But you do favor more National Guards in the airport?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Definitely. I don't think you can put a price on safety and security, so I'm all for that.

GUTIERREZ: James Diem (ph), thank you very much.

James had mentioned that there was curbside check-in at LAX. I can tell you that there are no private cars or vehicles that are allowed actually to park here and drop off or pick up passengers here at Los Angeles Airport. What you are seeing now are shuttles and taxies; those types of cars are allowed to come by, but no private vehicles at all.

I should also mention that California Gov. Gray Davis has asked for additional National Guards to help patrol the perimeter of LAX.

Miles, back to you.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Thelma gunships, at foggy Los Angeles International Airport this morning, thanks very much -- Paula.

ZAHN: Thanks, Miles.

"The New York Times" today quotes several excerpts in an article very critical of the government's handling of the anthrax investigation. Among the foul-ups, according to the newspaper, is the destruction of collected anthrax samples sent to Iowa State University. The "Times" also said investigators have asked questions that were too general and unlikely to bring out any new evidence.

It was almost a medical miracle: Doctors gave postal worker Norma Wallace only a 5 percent chance of survival. She worked at a postal facility in Hamilton Township, New Jersey, where investigators have confirmed that three anthrax-tainted letters have gone through. She spent three weeks in the hospital, but she lived through her case of inhalation anthrax. She is one of two people in recent weeks to survive the usually fatal disease.

Norma thank you very much for joining us from Princeton this morning. Good morning.

NORMA WALLACE, ANTHRAX SURVIVOR: Good morning.

ZAHN: How you feeling? You look great.

WALLACE: Thank you, I feel fine this morning.

ZAHN: Are you still on antibiotics?

WALLACE: Yes, I am.

ZAHN: And how you dealing with those?

WALLACE: I don't have any side effects. They are doing what are they supposed to do. I don't feel any discomfort at all.

ZAHN: You are lucky.

If you would, take us back to the day when you thought you had come down with the flu. What were you feeling? You knew you worked at the postal office where tainted letters went through. What did you think about?

WALLACE: Well, I was having chills and fever when I was on the job. And I didn't know how sick I was until the next day when I went to my doctor's office and they told me to go to the emergency room. And that is when I learned the gravity of the illness, at that point.

ZAHN: And was it at that point in the emergency room when they confirmed that you were suffering from inhalation anthrax?

WALLACE: No, they didn't confirm it until about five to seven days later. They were suspecting it and treating it as anthrax. Doctor Toefl (ph) and his staff administered IV antibiotics at that point. In the emergency room, they started the aggressive treatment. They did suspect it as anthrax, but they didn't want actually to make a commitment to that statement until they had word from the CDC and the results of the tests had come in.

ZAHN: Meanwhile, as that analysis was going on, you had a horrible time with fluid build up in your lungs. At one point, they removed six gallons of fluid from your lungs.

WALLACE: Yes, there was more than six gallons. The rapid biuldup of the fluid was, I think, a major complication that the doctors had to deal with the anthrax itself -- inhalation anthrax in particular.

ZAHN: And once the diagnosis was made, was anybody honest with you about your chances of survival?

WALLACE: I never asked about my chances of survival, but I understand the doctor talked to my family about it, and my family was very upset. And later during my stay in the hospital, when it closer to me to be released, then Dr. Toefl (ph) and I discussed how ill I was and how close I was to death.

But I did realize my own self that I was close to death while I was in the hospital. They there were times that I can't account for, blocks of times that I can't account for. So I had to be very, very sick.

ZAHN: And obviously, your family was incredibly concerned. Do you even remember your daughter singing to you and saying prayers to you in your ear?

WALLACE: Yes, she did. Yes, I do remember that. She was very faithful. She was with me -- I was admitted on Friday, and she arrived Saturday morning, and she stayed every day in the hospital with me. And my son was there; he would come from work right to the hospital and spend the night in the hospital room with me. My family was very supportive.

ZAHN: Now that you are feeling better, you have had time to reflect on what happened to you. Can you pinpoint when you were exposed to anthrax at that postal facility?

WALLACE: I can only speculate. I believe that it was on October 9, when I was working on a particular machine that jammed. And we cleared the jam, and then it jammed again, and we had to have mechanic come and blow the dust out of the machine. I think it was probably because I turned my back while he was blowing the dust that I probably was exposed then. There may have been spores mingled with the dust that he was blowing out of the machine.

ZAHN: If that is the case, obviously, you were infected at a time when nation knew very little about cross-contamination and how these letters were laced with anthrax. Are you bitter about what happened to you?

WALLACE: No, I'm not. I'm not bitter. There is a lot of mixed emotion, but bitterness, I can honestly say I'm not bitterer, because there was so little known at the time. And I'm basically one of the survivors that is giving medical science and health care providers more information about how anthrax affects the body.

ZAHN: How many attorneys have contacted you about potentially representing you if you decide to sue the post office? A lot of them?

WALLACE: No. Actually, no. I had put a call into my personal attorney because I wanted to know, because I had so much media around surrounding me, and they were coming onto my property, and I wanted to know what my rights were at that point. But we didn't discuss anything in terms of the job and my position at the post office and what would be done, my future at the post office. We didn't discuss that. He told me to call him back, which I will probably do later on, when I'm feeling a lot better.

ZAHN: We live in such litigious society. Has anybody encouraged you to sue the post office?

WALLACE: No one has, I have heard that the postal workers in facility in Washington, D.C., were considering litigation against the Postal Service, but no one has approached me from that point of view, at this point.

ZAHN: So at this time that is not something you are actively considering.

WALLACE: That is correct.

ZAHN: Will you ever go back to work at maybe not at your old job, but at that postal facility?

WALLACE: I'm not sure, at this point, where I will be. I have not made a decision whether I will return to a postal service or not.

ZAHN: Do you ever think of yourself in a way as the face of defiance as our nation was so savagely attacked, that you beat this disease that you were given a 5 percent chance of winning?

WALLACE: I think that on two points. I first have to say that I had to be selected by God to survive this, and for whatever reason I'm sure he will reveal to it me.

And the second part is I feel good that I am a survivor, because that says to the people that are perpetrating this terrorism on our nation that they don't have a fighting chance. They can't possibly win. We are that kind of nation. We have gone through so much as a people that we know what it means to survive and to appreciate the value of life. Obviously, the people that drove the planes into the Twin Towers had no value of life itself, human life itself.

So we in America, we do still values. We are not perfect people, but we do have values and principles that we stand on.

ZAHN: There is tremendous power in your message this morning, Norma Wallace. Thank you so much, and we hope you continue to feel stronger and stronger every day.

And I bet you can't wait to get off those antibiotics. WALLACE: You are right. Thank you so much. I appreciate the time.

ZAHN: Good luck to you.

Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: More than 40 jet fighters assigned to the USS Enterprise are returning from the skies of Afghanistan to their home base, in Virginia. The aircraft carrier is due in port tomorrow.

Jonathan Aiken is at the Oceana Naval Air Station, where families are anxiously awaiting the homecoming.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN AIKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jennifer Clark and the wives of Black Aces 41st Fighter Squadron are getting ready to celebrate. Their husbands are coming home. The last time Jennifer saw her husband, Lt. Michael Clark, at home, in Virginia Beach, the nation was at peace. He is coming home to a different world.

JENNIFER CLARK: I have since sold our home, moved into another home, bought a new car, moved across the country.

AIKEN: Part of the life of a Navy wife, toughest job in the service, some say. While their husbands have been flying missions off the Enterprise and F-14 Tomcats, these women have been tending to the little things in daily life. Jennifer says it is the little things that have been the toughest on her since he has been gone.

CLARK: Him missing seeing our house for the last time as we were moving out, just the little, everyday things in life. You're driving down the street, and you think that is something new, or I forgot to tell him this. He has missed a lot about regular life.

AIKEN: This homecoming party doesn't begin to tell how excited these women are that their families will be whole again. Just watch what Jennifer Clark will do when Michael climbs down from that Tomcat.

CLARK: I will probably be laughing, crying. Probably, if I can run fast enough, I will run to him and tackle him if I can. But it's just going to be so fantastic.

AIKEN: And go by so quickly. Michael has to be back at work once the Christmas holidays are over.

But for now, it's champagne and streamers and aces all around, before the private time begins.

CLARK: I already have reservations made for the exact restaurant he wants to go to, and we are set.

(END VIDEOTAPE) AIKEN: And home is a little less than three hours away for Lt. Michael Clark and 21 other F-14 Tomcat pilots, two fighter squadrons returning here, to Oceana Naval Air Station, the fighting Tophatters and the 41st Squadron, Michael's squadron, the Black Aces. When these pilots come home, before they land, they are going to announce their arrival to residents in the Tidewater Region with a thunderous two- squadron, 22-plane formation flyover here at Oceana. When the planes land, they are going to taxi to this spot, where the pilots will be greeted by their family and loved ones.

Then they are also going to be saying good-bye to an old friend: Those F-14 Tomcats are being phased out. Some of the next missions these pilots fly, they will be sitting in the cockpits of F-18 Superhornets not unlike the one behind me.

So a lot of comings and goings here at Oceania Naval Air Station and a lot of anticipation as families await the arrival of their loved ones after seven months at sea and a month at war.

Now let's get back to New York.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Jonathan Aiken, thank you very much.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com