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American Morning

White House: Caves More Important Than Cities in War in Afghanistan

Aired November 15, 2001 - 10:41   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Part of the new word we're getting from the White House now is that caves are more important than cities in the war in Afghanistan. Joie Chen once again looking inside the nooks and crannies where people may be right now in the search for Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

Joie, good morning.

JOIE CHEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning again to you, Bill.

Joining us to talk more about cave war in Afghanistan, CNN military analysts, retired Air Force Major General Don Shepperd is here with us.

General, this has been the point of contention and concerns since the very beginning. Not only the natural caves that have existed in Afghanistan, but fortified and almost manmade structures within these things, but getting to find them is like finding needle in a haystack.

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD, (RET.) CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It's finding a needle in a haystack. You can find the opening, but finding the caves underground is very difficult. Now we say caves, because the natural caves, the Corez (ph), the irrigation caves and canals underground, but then you have these massive fortified bunkers that have been constructed over a period of time. They're very expensive and very, very extensive and well fortified. We're going to have to find them, and then we're going to have to go after them with specific weapons.

CHEN: Let's take a look. It is hard to imagine trying to move through the clouds and find the needle in the haystack that would be involved. Very mountainous terrain, and could be in a lot of locations in Afghanistan. All the way down to some of these sites. Now let's look straight into these things and talk about what sites might be held in these underground caves. Close-up look here, a room that might house forces, sleeping palace, as it were.

SHEPPERD: Yes, sleeping palace, they can be anywhere from, you know, 10 maybe up to 100 people for ability to sleep in there, with their supplies and food, et cetera, stacked by them, along with their arms.

CHEN: We are depicting here just a generic notion. We don't specifically know how many people might be kept in these facilities or how much they may have allotted for. They also might have had an opportunity to store up additional munitions.

SHEPPERD: Right, ammunitions that type of thing, RPGs, rocket- powered grenades, grenades, machine guns, ammunitions of all types. It's dangerous to store this stuff anywhere, but you got to get it off the surface of Earth, or we'll hit it there, so we'll put it underground in some of these.

CHEN: Other facilities that might be housed underground, a fortified area and a place to hold fuel for the long haul.

SHEPPERD: Yes, fuel for the long haul, not necessarily for vehicles, but probably for the generators and that type of thing, because you have to have electricity and communications, even underground, and so that's the kind of things you would store underground.

CHEN: Is it possible that they could build up fortification with things like steel doors like that?

SHEPPERD: Not only steel doors, but concrete barriers and booby traps, these places would be very, very difficult to enter, and very, very difficult and dangerous to maneuver through.

CHEN: Other facilities. We understand that Osama bin Laden actually has fairly extensive engineering background and might be able to build something like this. What does this depict?

SHEPPERD: Well, these are air shafts, and of course also alternate entrances to the caves. They have to have air to get in and out. Now remember, anytime you do anything, you leave a signature. Heat from these underground caves will also emanate to the surface. We'll be looking for them with IR sensors and other mechanisms out there, and then we have bunker-busting bombs that go underneath the ground to seek these out. But you've got to get in the room to be effective. It's a very difficult target.

CHEN: You know, when we look back and we look at all these locations that these things could be housed in Afghanistan, you do have some understanding the caves could be at one of a number of locations.

SHEPPERD: Right. Logical locations, the mountains there between Kandahar and Kabul and there. Also to the northwest of Kabul, to the northeast of Kabul, and north of Jalalabad. All of those locations house likely areas of caves and tunnels. Now the important thing is, the locals know where these places are, and the people that travel between them. So we are going to be getting intelligence from those that are captured forces for the local people. Special forces will do this, along with the Northern Alliance and other opposition, and we're spreading money around to try to help find Al Qaeda and bin Laden.

CHEN: Major General Don Shepperd, a CNN military analyst, thanks very for your insight as to what might be happening underground out there. Now back to Bill.

HEMMER: All right, Joie, general, thank you very much.

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