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American Morning

Cave Complexes Extensive; Interview of Niamatullah Arghandabi, Former Mujahideen Fighter

Aired November 16, 2001 - 08:26   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Time to turn now to the war in Afghanistan, deep within Afghanistan. Thousands of Taliban troops have taken flight from the Northern Alliance, heading south. Many Taliban soldiers, al Qaeda terrorists, and even perhaps Osama bin Laden himself, could wind up underground in an effort to avoid the Northern Alliance and deadly U.S. air attacks.

Miles O'Brien joins us live from CNN Center with more from inside the caves of Afghanistan -- hi again, Miles. How are you doing? I haven't had a chance to talk with you all morning long. You had some important things to cover.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Just quickly, I'm not inside a cave. I am here at CNN Center -- good morning, Paula.

ZAHN: Well, it is kind of a cave, isn't it, Miles?

O'BRIEN: I've got to be careful, the bosses are listening now. Yes, it's...

ZAHN: I haven't been to Atlanta Center, so I can't offer an opinion.

O'BRIEN: But as I look around here...

ZAHN: But the facilities here in New York, you know, are stunning.

O'BRIEN: Speaking of caves. All right, well, happy Friday to you all up there. Let's talk about caves in Afghanistan.

There have been caves in Afghanistan, literally, for thousands of years. In order to obtain water to grow crops, the Afghans have used caves to burrow down to the water table, and access water that way to irrigate their crops.

Let's take a look at some animation that we put together, to give you a sense of how intricate they can become, however. These Tauraz (ph) caves, very rudimentary, of course -- basically, a horizontal shaft into a mountain, and then vertical shafts to aid in getting the water. But they have been modified over the years in ways we see right here. Primarily, it occurred, during the days of the Soviet occupation. They were buttressed and enhanced in order to aid the Mujahideen, as they fought the Soviets, including sleeping quarters like this.

Here, you see depictions of Kalashnikov rifles, which would, of course, be nearby, food supplies and that kind of thing, linked nearby to a weapons cache there, with rocket-propelled grenades and additional Kalashnikovs, linked across the way to fuel drums to supply their vehicles and so forth, along with additional weaponry. And then air shafts, obviously very important to maintain air when you're underground.

Now, then, it gives you a sense of sort of a depiction of a typical type case. Note these right angles as you enter into the cave, and then this next depiction, will give you a sense of how difficult it is to attack people who might be in these caves. This is a bunker-busting bomb we're depicting here, a GBU-37, 4,500 pound warhead. If it, in fact, goes in and wipes out the entrance, say, to a cave, what you can see here, these right angles make it possible for the occupants of the cave, not only to survive, but to get out as well. So it's a very difficult thing to wage war against an air campaign, and certainly a campaign on the ground makes it all the more difficult.

, who is very familiar with these caves. He joins us live from London -- good to have you with us, sir.

NIAMATULLAH ARGHANDABI, FORMER AFGHAN CAVE FIGHTER: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Give us a sense of how intricate these caves are, and how useful they are to fighters who hunker down in them.

ARGHANDABI : Yes, there are many caves where I used to fight. We were using them to hide and keeping our munitions, and we lived in them to hide and keep our munitions and important weapons, and especially when we were striking the Soviet position or ambushing them time wise, if things were getting bad for us, so we would go back to the caves that we were very familiar with, and we made it stone by stone. So, and we were using them for hiding.

O'BRIEN: Well, are they virtually impenetrable, Mr. Arghandabi?

ARGHANDABI: Yes they are. I mean, there are different kinds of, you know, caves. The ones you were talking about, though, we call it kurages (ph), and that is in Kandahar and around Kandahar. The kurages (ph) are not good for the fight. You can just -- they are going from the mountain to the plain area and for irrigation system. You can only hide there for a temporary time, but the caves in the mountains, those are, you know, natural caves are there for thousands and thousands of years.

So, and we made some spaces in there, so to hide, and they cannot be affected by heavy bombs. I mean, even if they hit the top. So if it hits the entrance, it may blow up the entrance, but if it is around that, it won't be affected.

O'BRIEN: Give us a sense of how well they have been improved and fortified, and how long people could stay inside without having to come out for more provisions? ARGHANDABI: Yes, in the kurages (ph) are where we used to hide, and those kurages (ph) are now, you can't stay there more than, well, let's say 24 hours, because they are wet and there are a lot of, you know, animals like snakes and other things. And then, if the enemy knows that you are there, you know, especially the Russians sometimes they would know, they would drop grenades. We wouldn't be affected much by those grenades, because there are spaces insider there that you can hide, and so they would not reach to you.

But sometimes they would force pour some seeds and poison the water, so that was, you know, very effective, or gas it so then we had to move too, because they were very long, like cave three, four, five to six and more than kilometers, so then we can go back somewhere and, you know, and hide somewhere else.

O'BRIEN: All right.

ARGHANDABI: And in the mountains, you know, the caves that we had been using, they were for long term, you know, and we were hiding there, and keeping our ammunition or regrouping and, you know, to our meeting and stuff, and that was for long, you know, term, and we were spending years and years. And we knew it fairly well, and we were, you know, familiar with the area. And when the Soviets were once, I remember, that heaviest fight I had ever seen or after or it would be before that, and I got injured in that war, and it was and in the north of Kandahar, then we had a base there, and we were attacked about 10:30 in the morning, and they got us by surprise. And we were around 160 people.

So there was, you know, heavy fighting. They were using a very sophisticated bombs and liquid bombs and the whole mountain were burning. But we still could hold on until dark comes and then retreat and go and make our way out of those areas, and because of the mountains are, you know, connected with each other, and we knew our way, and we was, you know, expecting if something like that happened, then we would go somewhere and, you know, we knew of the ways, and then we would go there.

Though we lost many people in that attack, and I have been injured, but still, I mean, most of the people we got, you know, out of the area, you know. And then we could keep it, the important thing was we could it

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Mr. Arghandabi, I'm sorry. We are -- our time has elapsed. Niamatullah Arghandabi, a Mujahideen fighter, we appreciate your insights on life underground in Afghanistan. Clearly, as he indicates in some cave, they can live and operate out of for years. So that's obviously offering some defensive advantages to say the least -- Paula.

ZAHN: Thanks, Miles -- see you a little bit later on in the next hour.

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