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American Morning
Will Ashcroft's Cooperator's Program Help Track Down Terrorists?
Aired November 29, 2001 - 08:04 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Back to that new strategy on the war on terrorism, the Cooperator's Program promises immigration help to non- citizens who provide information useful in tracking down terrorists. In the last hour, I talked with Attorney General John Ashcroft about his program, and also about the harsh criticism for the way he has handled the hundreds of detainees.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We believe that every person that we are holding -- as a matter of fact, we know every person we're holding is a person with whom we have -- for whom we have a charge. We've charged them. They have access to their families by telephone. They have access to their attorneys. They are individuals that are important to our effort to curtail the risk of additional terrorist attacks, and we think that this is part of a program, which has been successful. I was at a mosque the other day to...
ZAHN: So -- wait. Are you telling me...
ASHCROFT: Go ahead.
ZAHN: Yes, are you telling me that of those 12 people who have any sort of relations to
(CROSSTALK)
ASHCROFT: I'm really not...
ZAHN: They gave you information to stop a potential attack?
ASHCROFT: Very frankly, I'm not confirming any number. I'm indicating that among the people that we have, we obviously feel like we have individuals related to terrorism. And I don't want to say that we think it's as small as the number you have cited or try and give a number on that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do anything that I think would provide information to the al Qaeda network or to Osama bin Laden about the people that we -- or necessarily have about their relationship to him. We know that we have in custody al Qaeda membership.
We know that when we continue to work hard to make sure that those associated with terrorists, and those who are violators of the law are not only questioned and arrested, but they are detained, that we reduce the potential that we have additional attacks. And this is something that everybody is interested in doing -- all responsible citizens.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: Will Attorney General Ashcroft's plan to fight terrorism work? Well, two guests are going to sound off over what Ashcroft had to say in the last hour -- syndicated columnist, Julianne Malveaux, and Rich Lowry, national of the "National Review" -- editor, that is, of the "National Review" stopped by -- and welcome to you two -- good morning.
JULIANNE MALVEAUX, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Good to be here.
ZAHN: Thank you. So, Rich, I'm going to start with you this morning. Do you think the Cooperator's Program will really reveal useful information?
RICH LOWRY, EDITOR, "NATIONAL REVIEW": Well, it's hard to tell, but you know, this is clearly an intelligence war, and every little bit of information we can tease out of anyone helps. So this is obviously a carrot approach rather than a stick approach. I don't know how effective it will be, but it's certainly worth trying.
ZAHN: Julianne -- worth trying?
MALVEAUX: I can't hear -- I didn't hear what Rich said. There was a technical problem here, but I don't think that this is going to do very much. I mean, this is sort of like we'll trade visas for information. I think that this might, in fact, appeal to the basest in people. We've already had some reports of people with false tips, vindictive tips, I'm angry with you, so I think you're going to blow up a building or something like that.
I think that Mr. Ashcroft is way off base, and I think that's why he has been getting criticism not only from Democrats, but frankly, from his own party.
ZAHN: That may be true, Julianne, but let's take a look at the latest polling numbers. He certainly has the support of the public on this one. According to an ABC "Washington Post" poll, the number who support the idea of military tribunals stands at 59 percent; 37 percent opposing it. And CNN has done its own poll, which shows the majority of Americans back the kinds of changes he's talking about, and even like 20 percent or so don't think he's gone far enough.
MALVEAUX: Paula...
ZAHN: So he has the public on his side at this point.
MALVEAUX: Paula, people are frightened, and the government has done very little to assuage this fear. But at the same time, what we are also finding out from the recent "New York Times" piece is that many of the people who are being held are not being held because they are terrorists, they speed. They are guilty of petty crimes. And so, I think that you -- you are tapping into fear when you say you haven't gone far enough. As long as we live on the scepter of terrorism, obviously people want to do whatever they can to root it out.
ZAHN: All right. Let's talk about those numbers, Rich, for a second, and I know the general -- attorney general said he was uncomfortable sharing any specific numbers, I think we can all understand why. But according to the "Wall Street Journal," we have 603 people in custody, some 55 people arrested, and the estimate is that about a dozen or so of those 603 detainees had anything at all to do with terrorism.
Is that a successful investigation, Rich.
RICH: Paula, I can't hear you.
MALVEAUX:: I can't hear you either, Paula.
ZAHN: Oh, no. I have a problem, now if we have to moderate two people who can't hear each other. OK, Rich, are you with me now?
LOWRY: If you have about a dozen people in custody, who have some ties to terrorists, we can argue about whether that's a large number, or whether it's a small number. But I think we can all agree it is a good thing that those people are in custody. And the practical effect of the sort of policies Julianne is advocating would be those people walking free on the streets. And we only caught the dozen we have because we cast a very wide net, and the people who are still in custody are either ordinary criminals who are guilty of credit card fraud, of drunk driving, and things of that nature, or they are being held on immigration violations.
MALVEAUX: Just a minute, Rich.
LOWRY: You know, the last time I checked, it is still illegal...
MALVEAUX: Just a second!
LOWRY: ... in America to violate the law.
MALVEAUX: But even former FBI Director William Webster has said that the Ashcroft methods go too far and may not be effective.
Here's the biggest problem: Even if we do need to detain people, the executive branch has basically overruled any checks and balances. Either the Congress or the courts have been denied the opportunity to weigh in here. I don't think that anyone wants to give terrorists a pass.
LOWRY: Julianne -- Julianne...
MALVEAUX: But I think that we want to preserve...
LOWRY: Julianne, the executive...
MALVEAUX: ... our civil liberties...
LOWRY: ... the executive branch...
MALVEAUX: ... as a fact that this is a way of life here that is being attacked by our overzealousness. You can't hold someone, because they...
LOWRY: Yes, you can, if they violate the law.
MALVEAUX: ... were speeding, and to call them a terrorist, keep them as a material witness for 40 to 60 days. You know full well, Rich, that that's not right, and you know that it's not preventing anything. These extraordinary measures...
LOWRY: Julianne...
MALVEAUX: ... simply are no more than intimidation and the erosion of our civil liberties.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: All right. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Julianne, wait, wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me that you'd rather -- those dozen or so people that may have links to Osama bin Laden on the street? Or do you not agree with...
(CROSSTALK)
MALVEAUX: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that doesn't, Paula, because...
ZAHN: ... the wide net that was cast that yielded their arrest was a good thing?
MALVEAUX: Well, Paula, the dozen, of course, I don't want them walking the streets. But do we need to detain 1,000 people to get a dozen? I don't think so.
LOWRY: But, Julianne...
MALVEAUX: I think we've gone too far.
LOWRY: ...the people ...
MALVEAUX: And I think this information for visas thing shows us how desperate and how wrong-headed we are right now.
LOWRY: Julianne, the people who are still in custody have violated laws. The Justice Department does not need any special approval from Congress or anyone else to arrest people who have violated laws. It is illegal to violate laws in America.
MALVEAUX: You don't hold people for 40 days ...
LOWRY: You do not violate people's civil liberties...
MALVEAUX: ... as a material witness, Jonathan, because they are speeding.
LOWRY: ... by arresting them for violating laws.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Just hang on, hang on, both of you, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let me come back to the issue that Julianne raised. And it was a concern that William Webster, the head of the -- the former head of the FBI had yesterday. And he was quoted in "The Washington Post," where he essentially said, "These preemptive arrests are not effective." And the point he was making, Rich, was the fact that if you make these arrests before the plan is fully apparent to you, you might not be rolling up the whole operation when you make the arrests.
LOWRY: Sure.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: He said historically, you know, you do surveillance, you start a long-term investigation, and at that point, you'd have the goods, and by the time it came to some real arrests, you'd roll up the whole operation. Why is he wrong?
LOWRY: Well, that's a prudential -- Paula, that's a prudential question. I don't think any of us have the knowledge to judge about whether the Justice Department should have let these people go longer, then arrest them later, or arrest them now. That just depends on knowledge that we do not have.
But I think in the scheme of things, is it better to have these people walking the streets, or better to have them behind bars? It's much better to have them behind bars. That's just common sense, and that's why the vast majority of people support what the Bush administration has been doing in this regard.
So only a tiny fringe, like Julianne, who...
MALVEAUX: Oh, come on!
LOWRY: ... oppose these sorts of things. Julianne, I think would think...
MALVEAUX: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) if that happened to you, why don't you back down...
LOWRY: John Ashcroft is...
MALVEAUX: ... on that. And I don't think that I'm part of a tiny fringe. When you say that 59 percent support...
LOWRY: It's about 10 percent...
MALVEAUX: ... that means...
LOWRY: ... 10 percent.
MALVEAUX: ... that 41 percent oppose.
LOWRY: Ten percent.
MALVEAUX: That is not a tiny fringe. Your arithmetic is just a bit lacking here.
LOWRY: Is 10 percent a large...
MALVEAUX: The fact that many Americans are extraordinarily concerned about these measures.
LOWRY: Ten percent.
(CROSSTALK)
MALVEAUX: Many have been intimidated to talk about and so like we'll do anything for safety. So when you talk to individuals -- when you talk to the many members of organizations, like the ACLU, not a fringe organization, what you'll find people saying is we're not prepared to sacrifice all of our civil liberties. When you hold somebody...
LOWRY: What civil liberties are we sacrificing?
MALVEAUX: ... at least let their attorney know.
LOWRY: Name the civil liberties that we're sacrificing?
MALVEAUX: We have attorneys who can't find their clients for months. Is that OK, Rich?
LOWRY: If you are violating your visa and overstaying your visa, yes, it's OK for the INS to detain you and keep you. That's -- you are violating the laws. What's wrong with detaining people...
MALVEAUX: People are just accused of terrorism...
LOWRY: ... who violate the law?
MALVEAUX: ... not seen to be terrorists...
ZAHN: All right. Do you know what I want to do with the two of you? Now that I can both of you...
MALVEAUX: ... accused of terrorism.
ZAHN: ... now that both of you can really hear each other, you can hear me. I want to move this ahead to next week, when the attorney general sits down, and what I'm sure will be extremely heated Senate judiciary committee hearings.
Is there any chance, Julianne, in your mind -- that you've got Arlen Specter, among the Republicans critical of John Ashcroft right now when it comes to military tribunals, Patrick Leahy on the Democratic side. Is there anything you think they will say to the attorney general that can convince him to change his mind on anything? And I need a brief answer from both of you. Julianne, you're up first.
MALVEAUX: I don't think he will change his mind. He's been pretty single-minded on this. I think he's wrong. I think his colleagues will offer him some constructive criticism, but it doesn't seem to date that Mr. Ashcroft has been able to hear constructive criticism.
ZAHN: Rich Lowry?
LOWRY: No, there will be nothing that he'll change. Just his common sense policy has wide support in the public. The one thing the administration should, perhaps, change is to do more to consult with Congress, but that's been a problem they've had prior to September 11 as well.
ZAHN: Well, Congress says it's completely cut out of the picture here. Do you kind of agree with that assessment, Rich?
LOWRY: Yes, they have always had a problem consulting with Congress. This is an administration that tends to hold information a little too tightly. And as I say, this is a temperamental thing that goes right to the top. It's the way President Bush likes to run things. It's the way the campaign ran. It's the way the administration ran prior to September 11, and that is, I think, a little bit of a problem.
ZAHN: All right. There you have it, Julianne. Rich was critical of one thing in the administration here this morning. Kind of unusual doing a sound off where you couldn't hear each other at first...
LOWRY: Well, we...
(CROSSTALK)
MALVEAUX: But we know we disagree.
ZAHN: ... but in the end, it was quite clear (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
(CROSSTALK)
MALVEAUX: That last point was a point of agreement, though. I do think that consulting with Congress will improve at least public relations, so I do agree with Rich on that.
ZAHN: All right. Julianne, Rich, we've got to leave it there this morning -- good to have the two of you with us. We look forward to having you back.
MALVEAUX: Thank you.
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