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American Morning
Richard Butler Discusses Possibility Osama bin Laden May Have So-Called Dirty Bomb
Aired December 04, 2001 - 07:29 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge was just a guest on our show, saying the latest security alert is not tied to the possibility that Osama bin Laden may already have a so-called dirty bomb, as the "Washington Post" reported this morning.
For more on this, let's turn to our own ambassador in residence, Richard Butler, former chief U.N. weapons inspector, now with the Council On Foreign Relations.
Good morning.
RICHARD BUTLER, FORMER U.N. CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: You heard what Governor Ridge had to say this morning. The "Washington Post" said, in fact, that one of the factors that led to Mr. Ridge making this announcement was this new intelligence that suggested Osama bin Laden is further along in creating a dirty bomb.
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: React to that and then explain to us what this new intelligence information suggests.
BUTLER: Well, it's good news that Tom Ridge has told us that this is not the reason for the new slightly unspecific security warning, that they already have a dirty bomb. But let's talk about a dirty bomb.
That's a very credible report and it backs up other information that came our way in the last few weeks since we went into Afghanistan that Osama bin Laden has been working on a radiological weapon. Documents have been found in houses that they occupied in Kabul that suggest this. We know that the head of Pakistan's nuclear uranium enrichment program crossed the border months ago and talked to them.
And what it comes to -- talked to al Qaeda. What it comes to is this, Paula. These people, Osama bin Laden and his people are seeking to put together a bomb that would spread reactivity. This is not a nuclear explosion. That is, the core of the bomb is not nuclear. The core is conventional explosive. But they put radioactive material, uranium 235, around that core...
ZAHN: How can he get his hands...
BUTLER: ... and when it goes off it spreads radioactivity.
ZAHN: Where is he getting his hands on this uranium?
BUTLER: Well, not sure. Maybe from Pakistan. Maybe from the former Soviet Union. But what we do know from documents found and from this intelligence evidence that the "Washington Post" has put together in a very credible way, is that that's what they've been planning to do.
This is a so-called dirty bomb. This is highly enriched uranium that doesn't occur in nature. You run a Geiger counter across the ground and you get U238. That's what occurs in nature. And you get a little beep, beep, beep.
ZAHN: And that is not enough...
BUTLER: And that's not enough...
ZAHN: ... to put in a weapon that would cause radiological damage?
BUTLER: But .7 percent, .7 percent of natural uranium is U235. And if you enrich it, if you increase the number of U235 atoms at your disposal, the Geiger counter doesn't go beep, beep, beep. It goes boom, boom, boom, you know? This is serious stuff. And that's what forms the core of a nuclear weapon.
If they spread that around a conventional device, blow it up, New York City, anywhere else, you'll get radiation, radiological poisoning for a very substantial area.
ZAHN: So it's...
BUTLER: And that's a dirty bomb and that's what they're looking for.
ZAHN: OK. It's one thing to be able to develop this enriched uranium. It's another thing to be able to deliver, create this delivery system. Is that a pretty simple thing to carry off once you've got your enriched uranium, to make this bomb?
BUTLER: Unfortunately, yes, because, you see, you're not talking about a nuclear explosive device as such, which is typically delivered by an aircraft or a missile. You're talking about something that could be carried in a suitcase, you know? A conventional core, TNT or some, you know, semtech (ph), some conventional explosion, around which there is a collar of U235. You could carry that around in a suitcase, Paula. That's the problem.
ZAHN: In one of the most ridiculous reports I've heard today, Osama bin Laden is apparently telling anti-Taliban forces don't come to Tora Bora. This is sort of this cave like area that we've been focused in on for many weeks now where he is known to have been in hiding from time to time. Don't come near here. Don't blow it up. Give me a break.
BUTLER: Give me a break, indeed. I mean he must have been smoking some of that, you know, Afghan opium or something, really. He can come over here and blow the hell out of two of our cities but we're not to go into his front garden? Give me a break, as you say.
ZAHN: So how are people likely to react to that over there, the Mujahedeen, who he fought side by side with at one time when they were fighting the Soviets?
BUTLER: Oh, I think...
ZAHN: Are they laughing out loud?
BUTLER: Yes, I assume so. I assume so. This is ridiculous. I mean I hope that we're getting close to him. I hope that this ridiculous statement has made clear to us that it is Tora Bora. If so, I say let's go there right now.
ZAHN: Dr. Richard Butler, as always, good to have your perspective on the air.
BUTLER: OK.
ZAHN: See you same time, same place tomorrow morning.
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