Return to Transcripts main page
American Morning
Richard Butler's Analysis of the Current Afghanistan Situation
Aired December 10, 2001 - 07:33 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to turn back now to the war in Afghanistan. Near Kandahar, U.S. Marines are reportedly moving troops and equipment closer to that city which may reflect U.S. concerns about who's in control there. At the same time, al Qaeda fighters are putting up stiff resistance around Tora Bora despite relentless U.S. bombing.
For his analysis, let's turn to ambassador in residence, or at least our ambassador in residence, Richard Butler of the Council on Foreign Relations, the former chief U.N. weapons inspector.
Happy Monday morning to you.
RICHARD BUTLER, FORMER CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: And to you, Paula.
ZAHN: I know you just had a chance to see Nic Robertson's interview...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... with Hamid Karzai,...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... the new man who will be in charge of this government that will be installed...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... December 22. What did you make of what he had to say about the maneuverings of these other tribal leaders?
BUTLER: It...
ZAHN: Things are not looking too stable there, are they?
BUTLER: I think we should be concerned that Karzai does not take over until December 22 so there's a dozen days yet before what was agreed in Bonn gets put in place and he becomes head of this interim government.
What's happening in the meantime, something rather traditional in Afghan politics, tribal leaders, warlords are in Kandahar with some armed force in support of them and they're jockeying for position, dividing up the place. I don't think it's over yet as far as stability at the center of Afghanistan is concerned. And you know the Marines and their tanks are moving closer to Kandahar. We don't know why, but maybe they have concern, too, to try and hold the ring, to hold things together until December 22.
ZAHN: Well Mr. Karzai couldn't have made it any clearer that he believes that the international community can never let this place stand on its own and that is essentially what he said in that interview.
BUTLER: That's right. What he is saying, I don't -- I don't want to call it a confession of weakness, but he obviously knows the truth I think of what we've just been talking about, this isn't over yet. And he knows that for him to be able to do what was agreed in Bonn and start to run an interim government, he's going to have to have national support behind him and maybe, you know, some military support.
ZAHN: Let's move on to the fight in Tora Bora.
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: There are reports, and most of them anecdotal, that...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... Osama bin Laden has been seen in that White Mountain (ph) region. How dug in are U.S. forces going to have to get?
BUTLER: I think we have to take it as a given that he is still there. We can't be absolutely clear. But one of the signs of that is that al Qaeda, his troops, his foot soldiers have increased in number there, somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000. They've dug in. There've been two attempts in the last 48 hours to go in on the ground, you know, after the B-52 bombing has softened it all up and maybe destroyed some of those caves. Eastern Alliance troops have been moving forward to go in on the ground to deal with this remainder of the al Qaeda presumably protecting Osama and they have been rebuffed. They've -- they have faced very heavy fire and have had to pull back.
What does that say to me, Paula? Again there, it's not over. There's going to be a very serious fight there before we get to Osama bin Laden.
ZAHN: We have discussed in great detail this morning what is exactly on this tape that was taken...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... out of a private home...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... in Jalalabad. One of the highlights, of course, that Osama bin Laden was quite surprised both Twin Towers came down. It appeared as though, from this conversation on this tape, that he thought maybe the towers would just crumble...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... from the point at which the planes...
BUTLER: Right, above that...
ZAHN: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the building.
BUTLER: ... but nothing else.
This is an amazing tape. First of all, apparently it's very badly shot and maybe that's one of the reasons why there hasn't been a decision to release it because some people might think this has -- this has being scissors and pasted together. No, it's because these guys -- these medieval guys, al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden, obviously don't know how to use this bit of technology right. I mean it's hilarious, but there you go.
Now what it does show also is the brutal cynicism of this man. It's amazing. He was laughing at the fact that some of the guys on his planes, the planes that they had hijacked, didn't know that they were going to their own death. I mean this is incredible. The guy...
ZAHN: Yes, this man is supposed to embrace martyrdom.
BUTLER: Yes. Yes, that's right. He postulates to be a servant of Allah and God and, you know, martyred them and all that stuff. And what do we learn, like all such dictators from the past, elementally he's a cynic, he's prepared to burn his own people for his own ends.
ZAHN: And burn himself, according to a report...
BUTLER: Yes.
ZAHN: ... out of London newspaper this morning that he is going to stage a, what would you call it, a suicide?
BUTLER: A public suicide.
ZAHN: Public suicide.
BUTLER: Well, there you go. Maybe this time they'll get the camera to run right and we'll see it clearly. But...
ZAHN: And then there will be certainly no debate about whether that tape should be released, right?
BUTLER: Yes, but do you know why he wants to do this? Apparently, reportedly, this public suicide rather than be captured, but would -- and this is sinister, it would also be his signal, it is reported, for at least three more major terrorist attacks, one again in the United States, one in London and one in Paris. Amazing stuff.
ZAHN: Now you are very familiar with the British press, this report ran in the "Daily Mirror." Is it -- is it credible if this piece came out of the "Daily Mirror" of London?
BUTLER: I've looked at it carefully, and you have to have a little doubt about the veracity of what the "Daily Mirror" does. I hope they don't sue me for saying that, but they are somewhat into sensationalism. But, Paula, there are elements in the report that hang together, you know, reasonably and therefore, you know, it's worth us talking about. It's out there. I ask you, would it be inconsistent with this man's behavior...
ZAHN: Absolutely not.
BUTLER: ... for him to do something like that? I'm not sure that it would. So again, it's a space we have to watch.
ZAHN: All right, Richard Butler, as always, good to cover so much territory with you this morning.
BUTLER: Good to see you.
ZAHN: See you tomorrow morning.
BUTLER: OK.
ZAHN: Same time, same place.
BUTLER: Good morning (ph).
ZAHN: We might move you an inch or two to the right but look forward ...
BUTLER: OK, see you tomorrow.
ZAHN: ... to seeing you about 7:35.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
