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American Morning

U.S. Believes Osama Bin Laden Somewhere in Tora Bora Area

Aired December 10, 2001 - 07:04   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: For the first time in a week, there appears to be a lull in the U.S. bombing of al Qaeda targets in eastern Afghanistan's White Mountains. U.S. officials believe Osama bin Laden is somewhere in the Tora Bora area.

Our own Ben Wedeman is with the Eastern Alliance anti-Taliban fighters there -- Ben. BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Paula, there was a lull, relatively speaking, with the bombardment by the B- 52 bombers. However, just this afternoon we saw some fighter bombers, U.S. fighter bombers flying overhead, hitting those positions. And certainly today was not quiet in this area at all. There was a very intense exchange of fire between the Eastern Alliance forces and the al Qaeda forces in the hills. The al Qaeda firing back with 82 millimeter mortars throughout most of the morning. In the afternoon, there were some 120 millimeter mortars, which have a much further range, are far more deadly.

Now, we spoke this afternoon to Hazarat Ali, who is the head of the Eastern Alliance forces here. He claims, and of course we cannot verify these claims, that they today captured four tunnels and two what he calls command centers of the al Qaeda forces.

Now, another commander I spoke with up at the front lines, I asked him if, what he believed regarding the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden. And he told me a rather interesting story. He said that a local villager had followed a stray cow into the hills and in the process he saw Osama bin Laden. And as a result of that report, he's saying he believes it's a 90 percent probability that Osama bin Laden may be there.

But, of course, it's very difficult at this point to determine whether he is or he isn't. But some of the commanders say that given the level of resistance by the al Qaeda forces, that they believe they are making a last stand and that they are under the command of Osama bin Laden. And certainly the very small area that has been repeatedly bombarded by U.S. planes is still putting up resistance. That is where those mortars are being fired out of.

So despite the intensity of the fighting, it doesn't look like it's going to be ending any time soon -- Paula.

ZAHN: Well, I'm just curious, if they see this as their last stand, how many more days there they're capable of defending themselves. Can they hold on much longer? WEDEMAN: That's anybody, anyone's guess. Now, we're hearing reports that some of these caves are very well equipped. They're equipped with defensive measures and in some cases there are claims that there's electricity and running water in those caves. Now, we have no way of confirming this.

But certainly they clearly, this was an area they planned to fall back to and I'm sure they went there with supplies, adequate supplies. We know that, for instance, they have vehicles in that area. Therefore they must have fuel to run those vehicles. So they could hold up for quite some time -- Paula.

ZAHN: Ben Wedeman, thanks so much for that update. Appreciate it.

Americans also want to know this morning where the Taliban supreme leader, Mullah Mohammad Omar, is. His last known whereabouts, Kandahar.

And that's exactly where we find Nic Robertson this morning -- Nic, what's the very latest from there? Good morning.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula.

Well, the power vacuum created when the Taliban left was challenged between two tribal forces. Now, through intense negotiations over the weekend, the head of Afghanistan's interim government, Hamid Karzai, has hammered out a deal whereby the two forces, one is offered the top slot, the top political slot as governor of the province and neighboring provinces, the other offered the top military position. Apparent he has turned that down.

Both positions dependent on ratification by Afghanistan's interim government when it meets later in December.

But the meetings were held in the compound of the former Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammad Omar. They say they were chaired by Hamid Karzai, the head of Afghanistan's interim government.

Since he has been appointed the head of the government, he has been inside Afghanistan. No one has been able to get to him. He's only been able to talk to journalists on the telephone. And the CNN team I was with, we were the first journalists to get a chance to speak to him.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: Who controls Kandahar?

HAMID KARZAI: The people of Kandahar. That's Gul Agha Sherzai, it's Mr. Mullah Naqib, this gentleman, and that's it.

ROBERTSON: On the...

KARZAI: Not the Taliban, if that's what you mean. The Taliban are finished. ROBERTSON: Some people are telling us, with all respect to Mullah Naqib, that they think that he is not suitable to be the new governor or administrator of Kandahar and that's why there's the situation that we're in now, where Mr. Gul Agha and Mullah Naqib somehow...

(CROSSTALK)

KARZAI: Mr. Mullah Naqib is not the governor of Kandahar. He just helped with the surrender of power by the Taliban. Those things will be determined by the central government.

ROBERTSON: And what happens in the interim period, because...

KARZAI: A tribal council -- just a few minutes before your arrival we were discussing that. There is no problem at all.

ROBERTSON: What are your priorities for now as the head of Afghanistan's interim government?

KARZAI: Peace and stability for the whole country, hunting down terrorists, finishing them completely in Afghanistan and cooperating to finish them elsewhere in the world.

ROBERTSON: What are the biggest challenges that face your government now?

KARZAI: Well, we have been through years of war and interference, through years of misery, through years of terrorist rule in Afghanistan. There are many challenges. But against these challenges we also have now a feeling in Afghanistan that we must have peace and stability. Against these challenges we also have now the cooperation of the international community.

So with the help of the Afghan people, with the desire, the deep, deep desire of the Afghan people to have a normal life and with the recognition of the international community that Afghanistan must not be left alone, I hope very much, and I'm rather sure that we will be successful, that we will face all the challenges with courage and win, as we have done so far.

I never imagined when I came to Afghanistan on a motor bike from Chaman two months ago that within two months the way I went secretly to the northern parts of the country, I would be coming back in a big convoy of trucks and people and our national flag. So that's how things work sometimes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: So far, the deal negotiated by Hamid Karzai does appear to be working. It is reducing the tension in the city -- Paula.

ZAHN: All right, Nic Robertson, we're going to leave it there this morning. Thanks so much. U.S. officials are now saying that a new videotape is proof positive Osama bin Laden was the mastermind behind the September 11 attacks. Vice President Dick Cheney said yesterday the evidence is convincing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's pretty clear, as it's described to me, that he does, in fact, display significant knowledge of what happened. And there's no doubt about his responsibility for the attack on September 11.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Senior White House officials are said to be debating whether to actually release that tape. In it, according to the "Washington Post," bin Laden used his outstretched hands to explain that he expected only the top of the Trade Center to collapse, down to the level where the airliner struck. The total collapse of both towers, the al Qaeda leader said, was totally unexpected.

Walter Pincus of the "Washington Post" co-wrote that story. He joins us now this morning.

Good to have you with us, sir. Thank you very much for your time this morning.

WALTER PINCUS, "WASHINGTON POST": Good morning, Paula.

ZAHN: We just heard what the vice president said. There is no doubt about Osama bin Laden's responsibility for these attacks. What is your understanding about what is in this videotape that offers convincing proof of that?

PINCUS: He is discussing sort of what happened. It's a dinner. They're honoring some elderly mullahs. And he, in fact, as Secretary Wolfowitz said, was bragging about it. But he also sort of gives, he gives an indication that when he first heard the news he was with a group of people. He told them what happened. They cheered. And then he gave an indication to them to wait, signaling with his hands there's more coming.

And they look at that as one of the elements to it. But there are others.

ZAHN: Now, go on and explain what the others might refer to.

PINCUS: Well, the others are this idea of what they expected and that, in fact, they, again, by using his hands, it's visual, I'm told, and you really have to see it. There are transcripts around but there is also a videotape, although it's amateur and that's what's causing the problem, because both the sound and the video aren't quite as clear as they should be. It takes a lot of looking. And they're worried that if they try to put it out, people won't accept it, the people they want most to accept it, which is people in the Muslim area. ZAHN: What is it they're afraid that people won't accept when they actually see the videotape? What is so disconcerting about the hand movements and how that relates to what Osama bin Laden is saying?

PINCUS: It's really, partly it's an interpretation. Partly it's the words you say. But the words aren't all that clear. And because it was shot by amateurs, people who don't want to believe it, supporters of Osama bin Laden will argue that this is sort of a created piece of tape, that we're very clever with video and it's not true.

ZAHN: Let's quickly play what Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz had to say yesterday on one of the shows when he was asked about whether this tape will be released to the American public. He says, "The question of when we might release it, it is something we have to consider. If there are other videos to be acquired by the same means, we don't want to interfere with our ability to do that."

What exactly is he talking about here? As I understand it, this tape was taken out of a safe house in Jalalabad.

PINCUS: It was found in a private home. They're being very careful about how they got it, who they got it. And the secretary's words gave me an indication that perhaps they got it through an intermediary who knows there are more tapes and they don't want to endanger that.

So this is an effort to try to get something that would prove not just to professionals, but to the people in the street in the Middle East proof positive, without bin Laden, that he actually was involved. What they have up to now, intelligence people accept, governments accept. They're worried about getting something strong enough to make people accept.

ZAHN: I know, Walter, when you wrote the piece you had not seen the tapes. Have you seen them since you wrote the piece?

PINCUS: No, I have not.

ZAHN: And have you been given any indication that anybody within the government will share the tape with you?

PINCUS: Well, I think they're holding onto it mainly to try to decide how to release it. The debate last week when I first found out about it was over just whether to announce it or not. They don't want to, they really, one group is worried about giving away how they got it, stopping others from coming in. Another group is worried that it's not clear enough. They want something that's so positive that they can overcome what they still see as feelings within the Middle East.

I was just out there two weeks ago. There are still groups of people, particularly on the street, who don't want to believe that Osama bin Laden, that we have proof that he was tied to it, and they're looking for something that they can really show that has an effect on those people. ZAHN: Meanwhile, you'd have to acknowledge your piece certainly sparked a lot of debate on the Sunday morning shows. I need a brief answer to this one. In response to your article, you not only had Senator Biden, but Senator Hagel encouraging the government to go ahead and release these tapes to the public. Just your insight as to when the administration may make a decision on this.

PINCUS: Well, I think there's pressure now once the word is out about it. I think what you're going to have to see, though, is -- you people in television know better than we do in print, you've got to have sections of it. I was told yesterday that, in fact, it's so amateur that they taped it, they began in the middle of a tape and then they turned it over again so that some of the tape is used twice. And the sound is the same way. So the question is how they clear it up.

ZAHN: All right, well, Walter Pincus, delighted to have you on with us this morning. We'll stay in touch with you. Perhaps you may be one of the first reporters that'll actually get to see this tape.

Again, thank you for your insights this morning.

PINCUS: Thank you, Paula.

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