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Al Qaeda Defense of Tora Bora Area in White Mountains Crumbling; President Bush Saying Watching Bin Laden Videotape Reinforces View of Al Qaeda Leader's Capacity for Evil

Aired December 11, 2001 - 07:10   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: And we're going to get right back to the action in Afghanistan. Our own Brent Sadler is with the Eastern Alliance on the front lines in Tora Bora. That region, of course, bettered by U.S. warplanes and Eastern Alliance fighters.

Just moments ago, he spoke with us by telephone.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Al Qaeda, the defense of the Tora Bora area in the White Mountains is crumbling. We have seen the anti-Taliban forces sweeping through positions. I just left within the past hour a main al Qaeda complex and we saw for the first time, close up for the first time the effect that these nearly two weeks of U.S. air strikes have been having on al Qaeda and it is devastating, indeed.

This large complex surrounded by the tunnels, caves and trenches, an al Qaeda base, was hit repeatedly by huge bombs, huge, like, almost like walking across the moon in terms of craters all over the place. A T-55 tank smashed communications, dragged down weapons, textbooks, manuals scattered all over the hillside.

Now, that was, preceding that move against that base we saw anti- Taliban forces in very close quarter combat against al Qaeda, machine gun fire against both sides was within a few hundred yards. I know because we were pinned down by it, as well, for a time. But it really was some of the toughest fighting, at least on the ground here, backed up by those antiquated T-55 tanks. But it was sufficient enough to make a dramatic change around in events on the ground here.

Now, I've just been with the two main commanders who launched what effectively was the successful two pronged attack against al Qaeda. And they are saying that they have had face to face talks this day with commanders of al Qaeda themselves and it has been agreed that there will be a truce, a cease-fire. No firing for approximately 16, 17 more hours, 8:00 a.m. local time here in the White Mountains tomorrow to give al Qaeda time to lay down its arms and organize a formal surrender.

Now, given that al Qaeda is scattered over a large area of difficult, hostile terrain, that's a pretty tall order to complete in such a short space of time. But that is on the table at the moment. Surrender or die is what the Eastern Alliance is saying. They have the firepower, they have the aerial backup with the U.S. It's proved devastating, it's proved successful and they're going to follow through with that.

I've seen for the first time also, within the past few hours we've seen bodies of al Qaeda fighters freshly killed in action, within the past few hours, gunned down in close quarter combat and for the first time seeing an al Qaeda base smashed, obliterated by this aerial and ground assault.

So at the end of this day, a very dramatic conclusion, a successful conclusion and I can tell you that the anti-Taliban Afghan fighters are going down this mountain in a euphoric mood. But al Qaeda is still up there and this is not a final victory. It may be the beginning, but they're not there yet.

ZAHN: And just a reminder that not only is Ben Wedeman confirming this, but Brent Sadler as well. Those al Qaeda fighters have just about 15 1/2 hours to meet a deadline which will fall at 10:30 p.m. Eastern time tonight to surrender to Eastern Alliance forces or die.

Now, as the United States and other countries hunt for Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan, we raise the question where else could he go?

Well, our Miles O'Brien is at the CNN Center in Atlanta with a look at -- Miles, before you ever get started, are you pretty comfortable with the reporting this morning suggesting that Osama bin Laden is still in the Tora Bora area?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I don't know. I think I'm among the skeptics. If the entire world thinks that Osama bin Laden is in Tora Bora, I have to ask myself the question is that really where he is? Nevertheless, that seems to be what we're led to be believed by the Pentagon, by the government. So let's start with that premise, make that assumption that that's where the forces is.

But nevertheless, it might be worth talking a little bit about some of the other options for Osama bin Laden. And to do that with me is General George Harrison, one of our military analysts. And I thought what we'd do is just kind of take a walk around Afghanistan here, beginning with the most logical place to start.

If Tora Bora is up here and these caves, there are some 30 to 40 caves there, many of them built and fortified with the help of CIA money during the '70s to help the Mujahedeen, with tunnels that can actually lead into Pakistan without ever seeing the light of day, Pakistan would be a likely place, right?

GEN. GEORGE HARRISON (RET.), U.S. AIR FORCE: Well, obviously it is. The Khyber Pass is famous as an escape route in both directions. So that's one of the directions that he may end up going. And, of course, we know that the Pakistan political environment is somewhat unsettled. It's not a clear situation. So there is refuge in Pakistan for Osama bin Laden. O'BRIEN: However, General Musharraf, having allied himself with the U.S. throughout the course of this, with the prospect of some financial assistance as well as help for the military, may not be inclined to host Osama bin Laden.

HARRISON: That's right. So we have a political possibility of finding him because the government is against him, the government won't harbor him, as the Afghani government harbored him. So we can do that and that will help[ us find him if he does find his way across there.

O'BRIEN: All right...

HARRISON: So that's probably one of his less likely places to go.

O'BRIEN: Now, let's move up to a couple of the 'Stans here. Tajikistan, first of all, the Islamic republics. Uzbekistan we'll get into in just a moment. Former Soviet republics. Are these likely places -- first of all, if he, if, in fact, Osama bin Laden is in Tora Bora, getting from Point A to Point B is going to be kind of difficult if Tajikistan is his goal.

HARRISON: That's right. He's got some really high mountains to cross over. The weather is getting worse, so land travel is going to be really difficult. But still, there's, that very difficulty makes it possible for him to die. If he's willing to be cold and hungry and uncomfortable and risk the chance of freezing, maybe he'll give it a shot.

O'BRIEN: Would he find some solace in Tajikistan? It's predominantly Sunni Muslim. There's a lot of allegiance and feelings of alliance with the thoughts of the Taliban in Tajikistan.

HARRISON: Well, of course, politically anything's possible. But I think that there is enough, there's enough of an organized presence remaining there from the Soviet hegemony that he might not find the refuge that he thinks he will.

O'BRIEN: Lots of Russian troops on the ground there.

HARRISON: That's right.

O'BRIEN: So, Uzbekistan, where there's a lot of United States, the Tenth Mountain Division, we know, is in the southern part of Uzbekistan.

HARRISON: That's right.

O'BRIEN: It is, of course, a Sunni Muslim republic, as well, a former Soviet republic. Logistically, geographically even harder to get across there.

HARRISON: That's right.

O'BRIEN: You have to go through Hazara regions of Afghanistan, very rugged terrain. Is that another likely place or not?

HARRISON: Well, it's possible. I don't think it's likely because, again, the U.S. presence there along with the Russian presence means that he really doesn't have a lot of places to hide. And there are a lot of people to go find him.

O'BRIEN: All right, let's go quickly over here because we are running out of time. We need to talk about some other options in the Middle East.

HARRISON: That's right.

O'BRIEN: And when we go down here, there are two that come to mind very quickly, Yemen and Somalia. Yemen because Osama bin Laden's family originally hails from Yemen.

HARRISON: That's right.

O'BRIEN: A very poor Arab country that has fostered terrorism in the past.

HARRISON: That's right.

O'BRIEN: Once again, transit is a difficult issue.

HARRISON: Getting across. But he has some sea access so that's one of the reasons that the navy is going through the ships that are leaving the ports in the Pakistan area.

O'BRIEN: And Somalia, of course, we know lots of alliance and feelings on the Islamic side, Islamic fundamentalism there. Osama bin Laden has set up camp here in the past.

HARRISON: That's right.

O'BRIEN: Is that another possibility, as well?

HARRISON: Well, it's a possibility, but it's a very unsettled region and I'm not sure that he'd find the kind of stability that he needs to communicate and have influence across the world.

O'BRIEN: All right, General George Harrison, one of our military analysts, taking a quick view of the Middle East.

We didn't get a chance to talk about the South Pacific and the archipelagoes that might potentially harbor Osama bin Laden if he could get there. That's a big if. In any case, there are countries out there that may feel as if, with constituents that might feel some allegiance to Osama bin Laden. Getting there may be the big problem -- back to you, Paula.

ZAHN: All right, Miles.

We are going to focus in on that controversy over the latest Osama bin Laden tape, the one that was shot in a very amateurish way while he was eating dinner one night with some of his followers. President Bush is now saying that watching the Osama bin Laden videotape has reinforced his view of the al Qaeda leader's capacity for evil.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For those who see this tape, they'll realize that not only he is guilty of incredible murder, he has no conscience and no soul, that he represents the worst of civilization.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: The White House is expected to release the tape tomorrow, although a final decision has not been announced.

Senator Richard Shelby, Vice Chairman of the Intelligence Committee, has viewed the tape and says it is a must see for the American people. He joins me now from the Capitol. Good morning. Welcome back, sir.

SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R), ALABAMA: Good morning, Paula.

ZAHN: So, Senator, tell us what is the most striking thing about this videotape?

SHELBY: I think the most striking thing about the video is it shows unequivocally Osama bin Laden's culpability in this event of 9- 11. And what's sad about it is that he's in this meeting and he's gloating. He's laughing. He's having fun about the death and destruction that occurred in the United States of America.

ZAHN: So if he looks as bad and as weak as you described, why is there no consensus on releasing this tape?

SHELBY: I believe the tape...

ZAHN: This, in fact, would help the American cause in some sectors, wouldn't it?

SHELBY: It would, Paula, and I believe the tape will be released but ultimately that will be up to the president, the policymakers. They realize that. But timing is everything. They shouldn't release it too quickly if it's going to compromise in any way some sources and methods of where they got this tape. Maybe they'll get some more. Who knows? But this is a smoking gun if you've ever seen one. I believe it's central to letting the people in the world, outside world that are saying Osama bin Laden was not involved in this -- I don't know how they can be in denial after they see this tape and see the context in which he was operating.

ZAHN: And Senator, if you would, further describe the cynicism you thought Osama bin Laden exhibited in this tape, particularly when he was talking about the hijackers, most of whom, I guess he proclaimed on this tape, had no idea they were going to die in this mission. SHELBY: That's basically right. But I think the cynicism is real and when you see his gestures and you see the joy that he was exhibiting and also part of his audience was joining him there, the other gentleman there, the other man, you'll get sick. As I said, it's a sad thing to watch, especially the people who lost people in the Pentagon and lost them in the Trade Towers.

ZAHN: What are your concerns that because the tape was shot in such an amateurish way, and I guess the camera starts and then it stops and it starts again, that unless you have very good Arabic translation, that you leave yourself open to charges that the tape has been doctored.

SHELBY: Well, they will always say that. But the U.S. is not interested in doctoring tapes. They're interested in the truth because we know he was involved and there's a lot of other evidence than this that shows he was right in the middle of this. He knew, he helped pan it. He knew about how it was going to happen. He was overjoyed when it did happen. This just brings it all to bear. This crystallizes his guilt.

ZAHN: I know, Senator, you say it is important for the American public to have the opportunity to see this tape and yet some of your colleagues, including Representative Jane Harman, are adamantly opposed to that because they say it could threaten national security. I want you to respond to something she said here last night on CNN. Let's listen together.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JANE HARMAN (D), CALIFORNIA: I don't think they should put it out now. I think the three key words are need to know. The public has no need to know this information and I worry that for the same reasons they didn't release earlier tapes, there could be secret gestures, something he's wearing, the smile on his face -- at least I hear he's smiling -- something in the background that tips off this large worldwide network, the sleeper cells we know are out there, including in this country, and that leads to a second wave of attacks. Why do this at all?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Senator, do you share any of those concerns?

SHELBY: I don't share the concerns -- Congresswoman Harman and I both serve on the Intelligence Committee, she in the House, and we agree on a lot of things. But I said I believe it's important for the American people and the rest of the world to see these tapes.

Now, the timing is what's important. If the administration wants to release those tapes tomorrow or next week, that's their decision. They're in a better position to know when to release them. But I do believe they should be released.

ZAHN: Senator Shelby, thanks so much for your time.

SHELBY: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: It's always great to have you with us on the air.

SHELBY: Thank you.

ZAHN: Good luck with all you have to do later today.

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