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American Morning

According to "Washington Post" Report, Team of U.S. Officials in Somalia This Past Weekend

Aired December 12, 2001 - 08:07   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: The Defense Department is now saying that the U.S. military effort remains focused on the task at hand in Afghanistan, but according to a "Washington Post" report, a team of U.S. officials was in Somalia just this past weekend.

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GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Rogue states are clearly the most likely sources of chemical and biological and nuclear weapons for terrorists.

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ZAHN: That raises this question: Where, outside of Afghanistan, might al Qaeda be hiding? Could it be in Somalia? And does this mean the U.S. military is actually considering a return to the place where it got such a humiliating lesson.

Larry Johnson, former member of the State Department Office on Counterterrorism, joins me now from Washington.

LARRY JOHNSON, COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Hi, Paula.

ZAHN: Thanks for joining us again -- always good to see you.

So what do you make of these reports. Now the "Wall Street Journal" too, this morning, has said that al Qaeda's presence has been determined in Somalia on a small scale, and it could potentially make Somalia a likely target.

JOHNSON: Well, strategically, if the United States wants to create an impression of invincibility, then it makes sense to go immediately after places like Somalia, Sudan -- and also look at Yemen. Those are what I would call the low-hanging fruit. They don't really have significant terrorist training camps. They have not been involved with significant attacks against the United States. They are easy targets to take out.

So I think this may be either a possibility of someone spinning it, trying to say, hey, we need to look at Somalia, because that's been popular in Washington in recent weeks. The countries that you have a personal grievance against, then get them up on the list.

ZAHN: Why would you say these are easy targets to hit, because they are small targets?

JOHNSON: Well, not that they're small. They have not had training camps there, per se, as we've seen in Afghanistan and places like Lebanon. They don't have a committed infrastructure to protecting these kinds of individuals. So they are really -- and from the standpoint of just positioning military forces to operate there -- much easier. Sudan, in fact, has been backing away since the bombings in August of 1998, from being one wanting to tolerate some terrorists to really trying to be more congenial with U.S. interests.

ZAHN: I wanted you to react now to something the deputy secretary of defense said yesterday, Paul Wolfowitz, on the issue of Somalia. Let's both listen.

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PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: You people have mentioned Somalia for obvious reasons. It's a country virtually without a government, a country that has a certain al Qaeda presence already.

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ZAHN: Was this a trial balloon that was being floated yesterday?

JOHNSON: And there's a lot of that going on. Here's what I don't understand, Paula. If you look at every country in the world, there's only one country in the entire world where you have more terrorists training camps than are in Afghanistan. That's in Lebanon. And in Lebanon, you have more terrorist groups that have actually killed Americans, apart from al Qaeda: Hezbollah, Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

So, you know, from -- again, from the strategic standpoint, if you're wanting to create an impression in the Arab world that if you come against us, we're going to crush you, then yes, go after Somalia and Sudan, because they are easy to crush. But if we're going to really get serious about stopping terrorism, Lebanon has got to be right up there at the top.

ZAHN: All right. You talked about the strategy behind this, but of course, then the calculation has to be built, a concern about what happens to your coalition, particularly...

JOHNSON: Sure.

ZAHN: ... the support among Arab states right now for this war on terrorism. Walk us through the landmines there.

JOHNSON: Well, in the future, I don't think it's going to be as difficult from the standpoint of looking for military operations, because these countries don't offer those kinds of military targets that we've seen in Afghanistan. So it's not going to be so much an issue of rallying the world to get military support. I think it's going to come down to making the case that these groups that are involved with killing civilians, with murdering men, women and children that are not involved with a military conflict that's legitimized by the international rules of war, that those groups and those countries have to be held accountable.

It is -- it's feasible from a diplomatic standpoint, and so I don't think it's going to be all that difficult, but it does require focus. It requires getting the message out.

ZAHN: Larry, before we let you go, we know you have studied the movements of Osama bin Laden very closely. What do you think his status is right now?

JOHNSON: I think his days are dwindling away rapidly. I'm really interested to see the videotape when they release it, because some of the more recent videotapes -- he's almost got this wild-eyed look about him. To say that he's possibly having psychotic episodes I don't is an overstatement. We've seen a guy who is probably crumbling intellectually, mentally, as well as physically.

So I think it will be very important to see sort of what his status is. He may be gleeful, but this is a guy who is not this strong, vibrant character. I think we're seeing the world crashing down around him.

ZAHN: One of the odder strains of information we've been given was through United Arab Emirates' interview with Osama bin Laden -- one of his ex-wives, and she apparently said that he has a great deal of trouble controlling diabetes.

JOHNSON: Right.

ZAHN: We haven't been able to independently confirm that, but you've heard that report as well.

JOHNSON: I have heard that, and again, you look at some of the pictures of him and compare what it was 10 years ago. He looks increasingly frail. You know, he doesn't exude that sense of I've been working out at the health club, and I feel great attitude.

ZAHN: Larry Johnson, as always, good to have you with us -- thanks for your time this morning.

JOHNSON: Thanks, Paula.

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