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American Morning

Interview of Hasan Abdul Rahman

Aired December 13, 2001 - 09:04   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: As we've been telling you, some big important developments to talk about in the Middle East. The Israeli military has retaliated against Palestinian positions in the West Bank and Gaza. The Jewish state cut its contacts with Yasser Arafat and his Palestinian Authority. That after more terrorist attacks. CNN's Matthew Chance reports to us from Gaza City.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The aftermath of Israeli strikes, a heavy price for militant Palestinian attacks. This destroyed naval building, part of Yasser Arafat's presidential compound in Gaza. It was repeatedly struck by Israeli bombs. The accessories of statehood were also hit.

These musical instruments belong to Arafat's presidential guard of honor. They once played for President Clinton and other heads of state on their visit to Gaza. I picked through the rubble with Salah Taha (ph), the pipe major of the band. His words were of defiance.

"The Israelis will never change our dreams," he told me, "until they kill the last Palestinian child," he says, "we'll demand our independent state."

But through this retaliatory destruction, Israel is pressing demands for security of its own.

(on camera): It's clear the five hours of strikes delivered crushing blows to institutions of the Palestinian authority. Even the house of Yasser Arafat was damaged. And the impact of the bombing is being felt by civilians too. Many people in Gaza saying they are shocked at what Israel has done.

(voice-over): In the market at Palestine Square in Gaza, life appears to have changed little as a result of the Israeli attacks. The strikes may have been intended to send a clear message after ten Israelis were killed in the West Bank, but in Gaza, the Israeli response has fueled resentment.

"The Israelis think that when one of their own dies, it's a big thing, but that it's okay to strike at us," this market trader says. "They say the Palestinians are the terrorists, but it's them who bring terror to us." "We understood immediately what was happening," says this girl. "Mom and dad tried to calm us down, but we were very scared. I hope we have our revenge," she adds.

At the naval base in northern Gaza, there's no doubt the carefully targeted airstrikes were of unprecedented ferocity, but many here are asking how hopes of peace between Israelis and Palestinians can be recovered from this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE: Well, Paula, a lot of anxiety here about which direction the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is heading. You join me here on this roof-top location overlooking Gaza City, and you can see how densely packed in the million or so Palestinians are, living in this very small area where they 're living under Palestinian Authority controlled.

From this roof-top position, it's the place where we were witnessing throughout the course of last night, local time, and into the earlier hours of this morning, those repeated airstrikes for some five hours from Israeli warplanes that flew through the skies overhead here, hitting buildings, many of them between where I'm stand now and the Mediterranean Sea there, in the background. Those blasts literally shaking the building on which I'm standing now.

Many of the Palestinians I spoke to today say that they were extremely frightened, many of them are worried again about what the night will bring fearing the possibility of more Israeli airstrikes. Paula, back to you in New York.

ZAHN: Matthew, I have a couple of questions for you. Earlier this morning, we had as a guest the Israeli Consul General Alon Pinkus on the air, and he said although Israel has cut ties with Yasser Arafat, in his words, he has a few more days to perform, and I asked him what does that mean, and he said, he must dismantle Hamas. It's not enough to close the offices of Islamic Jihad and Hamas, or he must say, or must denounce in Arabic, the Intifada. What are the chances of any of those conditions being met?

CHANCE: Well, it's interesting that the Israelis have actually said this at a time like this when, of course, they are putting a lot of pressure on Yasser Arafat, not just physically to go about the business of picking up militants from the streets and cracking down on militant groups like Hamas, but also politically as well. Of course, it was always immensely unpopular among the Palestinian people at large for Yasser Arafat's Palestinian National Authority to go about arresting what are, for many people here, essentially heroes of the Intifada.

It has become all the more difficult now that the Israeli air force has been striking at Palestinian Authority positions here in the Gaza strip and really striking a lot of fear in the hearts of many people here in Gaza -- Paula.

ZAHN: Thanks so much, Matthew Chance. As you know, the bus ambush may have been, as the Israeli government is calling it, the last straw. Israel says it may be a little too late for Yasser Arafat, but despite calling him irrelevant, it has not written him off entirely. The Israeli Consul General Alon Pinkus spoke with us here, as I just mentioned with Matthew, in the last hour. Here's more of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALON PINKUS, CONSUL GENERAL, ISRAELI CONSULATE IN NEW YORK: I think the Palestinian leadership destroyed itself politically in the last year, and they have rendered themselves -- I'm sorry -- irrelevant, and we're not out to get Arafat. We're not out to get the Palestinian leadership, in fact, by rendering or characterizing them as irrelevant. We are still leaving some room for Arafat to operate. This is not irreversible, but it is too little, it is too late, it is too futile the things that he has done in the last twelve hours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: So, does peace stand a chance, now, in the Middle East? Hasan Abdul Rahman is the chief Palestinian representative to the United States. He joins me from Washington. Thank you very much for being with us this morning, sir.

HASAN ABDUL RAHMAN, CHIEF PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE: Thank you.

ZAHN: So, Mr. Rahman, we just mentioned some of the conditions, and maybe that's too strong of a word, but some of the ideas the Israeli consul general mentioned this morning in order to bring Yasser Arafat back to the table, and he said, among other things, that he must dismantle Hamas, that it's not enough just to close the offices of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and also said he must denounce or declare, in Arabic, that the Intifada is over. What is the likelihood of Yasser Arafat responding to either of those things?

RAHMAN: First, I believe that the Israelis not interested in peace, because if they were interested in peace, then they would not be waging a war against all of the Palestinian people, and not against the individuals who are responsible.

ZAHN: All right. Could you answer the question I just posed, because those were two very specific things he outlined.

RAHMAN: Yes, yes. Would you please allow me to answer.

ZAHN: Sure.

RAHMAN: Second, I believe that the Israelis want the Palestinians to surrender, and not to have peace with the Palestinians because they are trying to dictate to the Palestinians, and not to negotiate with the Palestinians. In our views, the possibility for peace depends very much on the behavior of the Israelis. If Mr. Sharon believes that he can select the leadership of the Palestinians, if Mr. Sharon believes that he can defeat the Palestinian people, he is absolutely wrong, and he is --

ZAHN: All right.

RAHMAN: -- he is going to have the surprise of his life. But --

ZAHN: Okay, but Mr. Rahman, but I just laid out two very specific things that Alon Pinkus said this morning. Are either one of those things viable? Do you see time where Yasser Arafat would ever say the Intifada is over in Arabic?

RAHMAN: But that's precisely what I'm talking about. The Intifada is a Palestinian revolt against Israel's occupation. There is a 35-years-old occupation sitting on the chest of the Palestinian people, depriving them of their political and human rights. Therefore, the Palestinians have the God given right to protest occupation. We are against terrorism. On our side, terrorism is committed by a small minority of individuals, and we are trying to put them in prison. On the Israeli side, terrorism is committed by the state of Israel, by Mr. Sharon and his army. Who is going to put Mr. Sharon and his army in prison? If they want us --

ZAHN: Wait, wait, wait. Before you go further, Mr. Rahman, essentially what you're saying, then, that Mr. Arafat will not say this, because you believe Palestinians have the right to defend -- I guess what you're saying is defend themselves against occupation. So, if this is one of the things that Mr. Pinkus indicated might give Yasser Arafat a chance, are you telling me there's no chance of that happening?

RAHMAN: What I'm trying to say is the following: I am saying that for peace to succeed, you need the two parties to agree to a set of mutual and reciprocal steps. It is not only the Palestinians who need to do things. Israel needs to do things also. If the Israelis want to dictate the Palestinians while they are continuing their onslaught on the Palestinians, it is not going to work.

The Israelis have to treat the Palestinians with respect, dignity, and not to try to put -- to bring them to their knees, because it is not going to work. Israel cannot expect the Palestinians to arrest people while Israel is destroying the very police stations and the very police who is supposed to be doing that. Israel cannot expect Yasser Arafat to be their partner if they are attacking Yasser Arafat personally, and accusing him of being a terrorist. So, the Israelis must really come to terms with themselves.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Let me ask you this. Mr. Pinkus, once again, didn't completely close the door on Yasser Arafat. I asked him the question, then, if you're not going to deal with Yasser Arafat, who within the Palestinian leadership would you deal with? Do you have any idea, if -- if you don't -- if you don't see any change in this impasse, who the person might be if Yasser Arafat is continued to be perceived as irrelevant by the Israelis?

RAHMAN: Well, you know, the Israelis want Yasser Arafat to be a policemen who works for them. Yasser Arafat was elected by the Palestinian people as their leader, and not as a police comissar to work for the Israelis. He can be the partner for the Israelis, if we have someone in Israel who is ready to make peace with us and and respect our rights. But, if the Israelis expect Yasser Arafat to be a police officer, working for Israeli (UNINTELLIGIBLE), they are absolutely wrong.

Yasser Arafat is a respectable man. He is the respectable leader of the Palestinian people. He was elected by the overwhelming majority of the Palestinians. We don't like Mr. Sharon, because many people think that he's a terrorist and he's a war criminal, but he was elected by the Israeli people, and we are ready to work with him.

ZAHN: All right. Well, you, no doubt, know what Mr. Pinkus also said about this this morning that he has been politically destroyed, not as a result of the Israelis, but he called it "self-inflicted" wounds, and he said he has outlived his usefulness --

RAHMAN: Well, Mr Pinkus --

ZAHN: You know what I'd love for you to do? Can you join Mr. Pinkus on the air --

RAHMAN: Of course.

ZAHN: -- and maybe the two of you can go through each of the points you've made --

RAHMAN: Absolutely, absolutely.

ZAHN: -- and we'll do a point-counterpoint.

RAHMAN: Yes, we have done it before, and I'm ready to do it, if Mr. Pinkus is ready.

ZAHN: All right. Well, we will invite both or you, we'll see when the earliest date is that that can happen.

RAHMAN: Thank you, thank you very much.

ZAHN: Mr. Rahman, thank you very much for your time this morning.

RAHMAN: Thank you.

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