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American Morning

Interview of Robert Udell and Joe Arpaio

Aired December 13, 2001 - 09:23   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Our Sound-off this morning, should kids be tried as adults? In Pensacola, Florida, brothers Alex and Derek King, ages 13 and 12, are charged with first-degree murder in connection with their father's death. If convicted, they could get life. The case has once again called into question laws regarding juvenile offenders. Should they be prosecuted as adults?

Joining us now to sound off from Maricopa County, Arizona, Sheriff Joe Arpaio, and from St. Lucie County, Florida, criminal defense attorney Robert Udell. Good morning, gentlemen. Welcome to both of you.

ROBERT UDELL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good morning, Paula.

JOE ARPAIO, SHERIFF, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: Good morning.

ZAHN: So, Mr. Udell, do you think it's a good idea to prosecute juveniles as adults and then make them face adult-like sentences?

UDELL: The answer is -- the answer is neither a definitive yes nor a no, but I can tell you this, I've represented children that killed for 25 years. Some intentionally, some unintentionally, and in the vast majority of the cases, in the great majority of the cases, you're only going to make things worse. What happens is you turn a juvenile offender into an adult criminal when you treat them like an adult.

ZAHN: So, what do you make of that answer, Joe?

ARPAIO: Well, I tell you one thing, they committed an adult crime, so they should be tried as an adult, and the people of Arizona passed a law three years ago: you commit rape, murder, drive-by shootings, you go to jail, my jail, I have 170 in the jail waiting to go to trial, and if you're convicted, you do the time. You do the time just like an adult.

ZAHN: So, Sheriff, you don't see any gray area here at all?

ARPAIO: I don't think the victims' loved ones care what the age is. You know, it's just the way it is, and we can argue this. He can argue that, but once again, you commit a serious crime. You know, in the past, you're released at 18 years of age. You murder someone, you're gone at 18, these juveniles. You're records are sealed, they're expunged. That's garbage. You commit that serious crime, you have to pay the consequences. I had one kid that's 13 in jail, waiting to go to trial for murder, but he surviving in my jail. I have the toughest jail in the nation, but I have no problems with these kids in the jail.

ZAHN: Mr. Udell, what are your concerns, long term, about these kids being in jail? Perhaps what Sheriff just mentioned, given the recidivism rate in our country?

UDELL: My concern is that every single one of them is eventually going to serve their sentence and get out of prison. Every single one of them, and I may be dead when some of these kids get out, and the sheriff may be dead, but our children are going to have to deal with some very violent people.

ZAHN: Well, let me ask you this. Mr. Udell, are you saying had they been sentenced as juveniles, the outcome would be any different?

UDELL: I can promise you this: Very few of these children who are serving lengthy sentences in adult prisons are going to come out better citizens. They're just not. History tells us that, I can tell you that from 25 years of experience.

ZAHN: Sheriff Arpaio, do you want to respond to that?

ARPAIO: Well, I don't know about that. I guess you could say that with adults too, but if you commit a crime, you should pay the consequences and you should be punished for that crime. Father Flanagan, I believe a Boy's Town years ago, they said there is no such thing as a bad kid. Well, I have to disagree. There are a lot of bad kids out there that commit vicious crimes, and put them in jail, and when they're convicted, put them in prison, and I don't have any problem with that.

I'll be the first one in the nation -- or in the world, to put juveniles on a chain gang. We are the first ones with the females, but I'm sure I'll take a lot of criticism on that. But, once again, our crime rate has gone down, except for the juveniles. The vicious crimes committed by juveniles, and we have to do something about it. The people of this state and states across the nation are fed up. They pass laws, and juveniles should be tried as adults and that's the way it is.

ZAHN: Sheriff, would any of those juveniles in your system be -- have access to any kind of treatment? These kids, after all, came from an extremely troubled background.

ARPAIO: Well, while they're eating my green bologna sandwiches, and they do get drug prevention programs. We had the first high school in a jail system in the nation for these juveniles. First high school, so we take care of them. They eat the same menu. There are no menus different for kids versus the adults, but once again we're surviving. I don't have any problems with these juveniles in my system. None whatsoever.

ZAHN: Mr. Udell, you get the final word, and -- some thoughts on how juveniles might endure in that kind of situation, not only in an Arizona prison, but in any other prison across America?

UDELL: The problem is when we enacted the legislation across the country to allow for the prosecution of juveniles as adults, is that the intention was that -- that was to be the exception to the rule. I agree there are some bad kids. Instead, it has become the rule, and not the exception. Here in the state of Florida, if you are a juvenile and commit certain offenses, you are going to be tried as an adult. That's all there is to it.

ZAHN: We're going to leave it there this morning. Robert Udell, of course, we failed to mention that you had defended Nathaniel Brazill, a seventh grader, who was tried and convicted as an adult, and Sheriff Arpaio, we continue to read about you. The green bologna thing, I've forgotten what is. You get that cheaper?

ARPAIO: Yeah, but I went down to two meals, now, instead of three. So the juveniles have two meals a day instead of three.

ZAHN: So, I imagine you're still taking a lot heat for that, aren't you?

ARPAIO: No. No, I'm still. Nine years I've been this sheriff.

ZAHN: All right.

ARPAIO: So, I expect to stick around.

ZAHN: Well, we're going to have to leave it there, gentlemen. Again, Robert Udell and Sheriff Joe Arpaio. Thank you for coming in to talk with us this morning.

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