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American Morning

If Israel Doesn't Deal with Arafat, Who Will They Deal With?

Aired December 14, 2001 - 09:23   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: We turn now to the conflict in the Middle East, where retired military General Anthony Zinni continues his peace mission, which is looking a lot like, in some people's minds, a mission impossible. The Israeli army says it has arrested 50 people during raids into three West Bank towns in Gaza. Six Palestinian police officers and security forces were killed in those raids, and the Palestinians say they are halting their efforts to shutdown terror organizations because of the Israeli attacks. Israel in the meantime has severed all ties with Yasser Arafat, but if Israel doesn't deal with Arafat, then who will they deal?

We're going to hear from both sides now. Joining us from New York is ambassador Alon Pinkas, who is the Israeli consul general, and in Washington Hasan Abdul Racak, chief Palestinian representative to the U.S.

Good to have you on the air together. We had hosted you as guests separately yesterday.

Before we move on to a joint discussion here, I wanted to replay a little bit of what you both had to say yesterday. On the program yesterday, Mr. Pinkas, Mr. Rahman said, Israel was the one not committed to peace. Let's go back to that for a moment to get your reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HASAN ABDUL RAHMAN, CHIEF PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE TO THE U.S.: Israelis are not interested in peace, because if they were interested in peace, then they would not be waging a war against all of the Palestinian people, and not against the individuals who are responsible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Do you want to answer that this morning, Alon?

ALON PINKAS, ISRAELI CONSUL GENERAL: We're not waging war against the Palestinian people. We have not waged war against the Palestinian people. We want to live with the Palestinian people. We have no choice but to live with the Palestinian people. But the Palestinian people just don't have a leadership. And the false prophets, as the "New York Times" call them today, of Palestinian leadership has delivered nothing but misery and tragedy, and it's very typical of Palestinian spokespeople, as Mr. Rahman is -- and he's a good spokesman for his people -- to blame everything on everyone else, never accept responsibility, never be accountable for the self- inflicted mistakes that you have made. And that's unfortunate.

ZAHN: Mr. Rahman, are you willing to concede that your side has made any mistakes here?

RAHMAN: I don't think that anyone is perfect. But when I said that Israel is waging a war against all the Palestinian people, I meant what I said, and I believe that Mr. Pinkas will agree with me, that today, as we speak, there's 3.2 Palestinians who are under occupation. They are under siege. Every single Palestinian town, village, is closed off. People cannot travel, cannot go to their schools, cannot go to their hospitals, because the Israeli army is imposing curfew not on certain areas, but every single piece of land in the West Bank and Gaza. Not only that, for the last two days, Israel had used missiles, helicopters, F-16s, to bombard Palestinian areas, civilian areas, or police stations.

If Israel was interested in peace, why then they would do this to the Palestinian people?

ZAHN: Ambassador Pinkas, who don't you try to answer that question Hasan just posed.

PINKAS: There have many different peace process, Paula, and I think that we've all been held captive to the process rather than its objective. There was a peace process. It was called Oslo. The Palestinians failed to implement Oslo. They have...

ZAHN: All right, But, Alon, come back to this specific -- excuse, me, ambassador, come back to this specific thing that Mr. Rahman has raised, the issue of hitting the Palestinian police authority, and he's says that Israel...

PINKAS: I'm getting to there.

ZAHN: What we -- the problem that we have with the Palestinian leadership is that they have breached and violated the Oslo Accords habitually, and that included clamping down on terrorism, and that includes not fighting incitement, not stopping the hatred and incitement and the organizations that perpetrate terrorism.

Now we have warned them for many years, the Europeans did and especially the United States of America, in the last year alone, we have implored Arafat to get his act together, to do something against terrorism, to express sovereignty to an exercise power. Otherwise, we will have to do it ourselves, because we are being attacked. And enough is enough. We've been bleeding for 53 years, and after Camp David, enough was enough for this entire year of violence.

And we have gone -- we have reached the conclusion that we have gone far enough in terms of making peace proposals, and if Arafat doesn't fight terrorism, then enough with the peace process and we will do what's necessary to defend ourself. ZAHN: So what you're saying that, ambassador, that justifies what Mr. Rahman said, the use of gunships, the use of F-16 and targeting the Palestinian police authority.

PINKAS: Yes, it does. Unfortunately, tragically, they have self-inflicted this, but yes, it does justify. The country needs to defend itself. Israel is a democracy. We're an open society. It is difficult enough to defend -- when you're an open society to protect yourself and defend yourself against people who lack a central authority. And as much as we would like Arafat to do something about it, he has -- and I think we've discussed this yesterday -- he has outlived his usefulness. I think we should make a movie of it, you know, "Useless in Gaza." He's done nothing. He is doing nothing. The Palestinian police is doing nothing.

He has 30,000 armed policemen who are standing in roadblocks, and absolutely doing nothing to stop the Hamas. Now Hamas is just like...

ZAHN: Before you go any further, let's give Mr. Rahman a chance to respond to that.

RAHMAN: First of all...

ZAHN: What about the 30,000 armed police officers?

RAHMAN: Yes. Yes. We have 30,000 police officers. For the last 14 months, Israel has targeted every single police station, and every single police vehicle, and made it impossible for this police -- how can Israel expect the police that is being shot at to arrest people who are resisting Israel. It is a contradiction in terms. If Israel was interested in calming the situation, their ally should be the Palestinian police, they should protect the Palestinian police and not attack Palestinian police headquarters and destroying Palestinian vehicles and Palestinian security infrastructure.

This is what -- number one, Mr. Pinkas has been talking about reneging on the Oslo commitment. I want to ask Mr. Pinkas, how many Jewish settlements were built, and Jewish settlers that moved in violation of the Oslo Accord moved to West Bank in Gaza. According to all Israeli airports, 28 Jewish settlements have been built under the government of Mr. Sharon alone. You are talking about democracy. Democracy is...

ZAHN: Let's get Mr....

RAHMAN: Let me finish one second.

ZAHN: Do it quickly. I'm up against a computer wall here.

(CROSSTALK)

RAHMAN: ... and deny their rights.

And your logic about the use of violence is exactly the logic of those on our side who say that Israel only understands the language of violence. You are telling me that your government will... ZAHN: We are up against a computer wall. Please, Mr. Ambassador, react to what Hasan, specifically the Palestinian concern that you continue to grow these settlements under the guise of natural growth.

PINKAS: Absolutely false, but totally consistent with the falsehoods he's been disseminating here. The number 28 is exactly, exactly 28 more than the real number, which is zero. But that's -- you know what, but that's not the point, because the point is that the issue of settlements, whether he likes or not, whether the Palestinian like it or not, has been discussed thoroughly at Camp David, and refer you to Bill Clinton, then president, to ask his opinion on the issue of settlements whether or not it was resolved at Camp David.

The issue -- we could look back forever. The issue is, where do we go from here? I realize, Mr. Abdul Rahman, is there is no retirement plan for dictators, which you were probably stuck with Mr. Arafat. When I say stuck. It's not us. It's especially you. And you need to find a way to transcend his flaws as a leader and come to terms with the fact that either you negotiate with us, or we will forever kill each other.

ZAHN: Mr. Rahman -- and. Mr. Ambassador, I have to cut you off.

And, Mr. Rahman, I really can only give you 10 seconds. The computer is going to take us off the air. Final thought here.

RAHMAN: Yasser Arafat is not a dictator. He was elected by his people. You cannot select for us who leads us. We will select our leader. You selected a man who is the only man that's been indicted for war crimes, and we respected your decision. Mr. Sharon is being tried in Belgium for war crimes today. We respect your decision. That's your choice. Our choice is Yasser Arafat. And if you want to make peace, we can make it on the basis of what we have agreed upon, you and us.

ZAHN: All right, gentlemen, we're going to have to leave it there. We are running into a computer wall here. Ambassador Alon Pinkas, thank you for your time. Hasan Abdul Rahman, for yours as well.

RAHMAN: Thank you.

ZAHN: We'd like to have both of you come back. You both raised some interesting issues that we will continue to debate, as will our audience.

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