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Commanders of Eastern Alliance Declare Victory in Tora Bora, but U.S. Officials More Cautious; No One Knows for Certain Whereabouts of Bin Laden

Aired December 17, 2001 - 07:04   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: We turn now to the war on terrorism.

Commanders of the Eastern Alliance have declared victory in Tora Bora and say al Qaeda forces in Afghanistan have been effectively destroyed. Now, U.S. officials are being a bit more cautious in their assessment, as bombing continues. But no one knows for certain this morning the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden.

Walter Rodgers joins us now live from Tora Bora -- Walter, what's the latest?

WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula.

Information coming from prisoners taken in fighting yesterday, these are Arab al Qaeda prisoners, suggests that they believe Osama bin Laden was still in the Tora Bora mountain region, which you can see behind me, as recently as Saturday. They did not say why they believed he was still there. Nonetheless, they say that Osama bin Laden was, indeed, in those mountains, to the best of their knowledge, just two days ago.

Now, this information comes from, as I say, al Qaeda fighters, Arabs who were taken prisoner. They were two Saudis, one from Iraq, one from quarter. They, again, did not say that they had seen him, but their belief was bin Laden was still in the mountains. That seems to be corroborated and confirmed by virtue of the fact that last night there were extremely heavy U.S. bombing strikes, U.S. war planes hitting the mountains behind me.

One interesting thing, however, is that whereas three or four days ago the mountain bombing was just about three miles behind me, it seems to be being pushed, the targets that U.S. planes are striking, being pushed farther back into the mountains, perhaps seven or eight miles away now, suggesting that what's left of al Qaeda and perhaps bin Laden himself is being reduced to a very small sanctuary in the most rugged areas of the mountains, the Tora Bora mountain range.

Again, no confirmation that bin Laden is still there. But prisoners of war who are being interrogated say that they believe that bin Laden was still in the Tora Bora region as recently as two days ago -- Paula.

ZAHN: Walter Rodgers, thanks so much.

As we have been telling you this morning, U.S. war planes continue to pound Tora Bora and as a hunt for bin Laden goes on, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld had this, said yesterday he is getting mixed messages on Osama bin Laden's whereabouts.

Here is what Secretary of State Colin Powell had to say, as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't think we do know where he is. The best bet is he's probably still in Afghanistan trying to avoid military forces. But I can't ignore the possibility that he might not be. He might have gotten out. But as the president has said, wherever he is, we will get him, whether it takes one day, one week, two years. He will be brought to justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: And right now we're going to turn to CNN military analyst General Wesley Clark, who is standing by in Little Rock, Arkansas, for his assessment this morning -- good morning, General.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME COMMANDER: Good morning, Paula.

ZAHN: So, General, let's talk a little bit about these conflicting reports we're hearing. We just heard from Walter Rodgers in the field that some prisoners have told correspondents there, in particular Walt himself, that they had seen Osama bin Laden as recently as Saturday. Where are you inclined to think he is?

CLARK: He's probably trying to escape and evade, but perhaps he's been killed. Maybe he's holed up in a cave. There's really no knowing at this point. What happens in a battle when it reaches this stage and you bring your forces actually onto the objective and you start pulling apart the enemy force structure and command structures, it gets very confused.

And the more difficult terrain and the more obstacles there are in the terrain, the more confused it is, the longer the battle takes. There's nightfall here. We're still bombing, obviously, trying to seal off escape routes. We've probably got people on the ground searching the hideout areas. We don't know where all those hideout areas are.

Obviously if people shoot at us, then we'll be shooting back and we'll identify them. But it's going to take probably several more days to fully go through this area and figure out what happened.

ZAHN: The other thing that Walt pointed out in an earlier report this morning at that border on the northwestern corner of Pakistan and Afghanistan is extremely porous. He says Pakistan does not even have control of it. So if that's the case, isn't that exactly where you'd be heading if you were trying to get out? CLARK: It might be. But I think that he will have to have an escape route prepared and ideally the escape route will have friendly people along it to give him support. So it could be along that porous border. We've been worried about that for a long time, as you point out.

It also could be back into Afghanistan and loping around to come out some other place to get into Pakistan.

ZAHN: So what kind of coordinated mission could you have between Pakistan and the U.S. if that's where officials figured out Osama bin Laden has gone?

CLARK: Well, what you'd like to see is you'd like to see some U.S. backup there with the Pakistani special forces and with the regular Pakistani troops. So you've got some U.S. special forces teams with special communications and other things in there that can help knit the two forces together as they close.

One of the most difficult things is to bring two different forces together. And as the U.S. and Afghan forces sweep south from Jalalabad through this Tora Bora complex and they come closer and closer to the border, it's going to become more and more difficult and dangerous to keep those forces coordinated.

So you would assume, and I think it's a safe assumption, that there are some U.S. forces with the Pakistanis helping to keep it all coordinated.

ZAHN: I wanted to play a small part of an interview that Mr. Rumsfeld did yesterday, too, where he had to answer a very direct question about how long he felt U.S. forces would be engaged on the ground in Afghanistan.

Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: In terms of the United States of America's responsibility and task here, it is to complete those assignments that I have outlined and there is no way to know how long it's going to take to find Omar and to find Osama bin Laden and to find the senior al Qaeda leadership and to see that they're punished. That'll take some time.

I'm sure that individual units and individual people will be rotated, but as far as our presence here, we're not leaving till we get the job done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: So, General, realistically, how long can the United States afford to keep these kind of forces in place? I mean do you see, is it realistic to think ground forces will be in place six months from now in Tora Bora? CLARK: Yes, it is realistic but it may not be the same forces. It may be, as the Secretary said, different forces. But we've used only a very small proportion of our overall military establishment in this campaign. And so if there's a need to rotate forces out, that brigade from the 10th Mountain Division that's there, they can be replaced and the people that are working around in the area, the marines, can be replaced. And we'll be able to do many other missions and still keep a force of substantial size in Afghanistan during the work there.

It's a very realistic and candid assessment by the Secretary, I believe.

ZAHN: Well, we'd love to have you stand by this morning as the situation is so fluid. And we will turn to you often to give us your insights as to the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden.

CLARK: Thanks, Paula.

ZAHN: General, thanks so much for your time this morning.

CLARK: Thank you.

ZAHN: A major step towards diplomacy this morning. They raised the American flag at the U.S. Embassy in Kabul. That ceremony occurred just a few hours ago.

CNN's Jim Clancy was there and he joins us now from Kabul -- good morning, Jim.

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hello to you, Paula.

You know, as I listened to the General talking there, lone of the points that came up this day when we talked with Ambassador James Dobbins was the issue of whether the Afghans would allow the United States to continue indefinitely this pursuit of Osama bin Laden and, indeed, he said that they had the commitment of the Afghans to carry on the fight against not only Osama bin Laden, but the hierarchy of the Taliban.

It goes to show at this flag raising ceremony this date, as you said, just a few hours ago, the monumental misjudgment of Osama bin Laden and Mullah Mohammad Omar, who believed that the Americans would find themselves trapped, being fought by the Afghans when it turns out that the Afghans have turned into some of the best U.S. allies in this war against terrorism.

It was evident at the U.S. Embassy this day as the red, white and blue colors of the American flag were raised by U.S. Marines into the gray skies over Kabul, Afghanistan, the capital here. This sprawling embassy complex battered, to be sure, but still somewhat intact here in Kabul. The ambassador was joined not only by some of the other diplomats here in the Afghan capital, but also by the defense minister, General Fahim, and the interior minister.

So these two important officials there, and they were there on hand to hear a message, so to speak, from the ambassador, who said that the U.S. was here to stay.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES DOBBINS, U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY: This new Afghan government will be led by a new generation of Afghan leaders who have a historic opportunity to lead Afghanistan into a new era. As they do so, they can be assured that the United States will be there with them.

With the reopening of the United States mission in Kabul today, America has resumed its diplomatic, economic and political engagement with this country. We are here and we are here to stay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CLANCY: Paula, one footnote. That flag that was raised up the flagpole, the very same one that was lowered here on January 30, 1989.

Back to you.

ZAHN: Jim, I wanted to ask you about something that's getting a lot of play in the papers here today in the United States, and that is the fact that although the Taliban leadership has lost its power, there are a number of reports to suggest because of deals cut with individual tribal leaders, many of them remain at large and many of them have been able to blend back into sympathetic communities.

Give us your perspective on that this morning.

CLANCY: Certainly that is the case and it's something that is a way of warfare, if you will, here in Afghanistan. Switching sides has its own chapter in the history of warfare in this country. It is acceptable to most people that these people similar[ply renounce their membership in a group, renounce any willingness to go on fighting and then they are allowed to return there with two thoughts in mind.

Number one, it prevents a bloody fight in the first place. Second of all, in the aftermath of any victory, it prevents retribution. It prevents serious feuding that might continue for years into the future. It's something that the U.S. and the rest of the world will likely have to accept because it is simply the way things are here in Afghanistan.

ZAHN: All right, Jim Clancy, something we'll continue to examine here particularly as this new transitional government goes into effect this weekend.

Thanks so much for that report.

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