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American Morning

Conflicting Reports About Whether Two U.S. Transport Planes Came Under Missile Fire Just Hours Ago; So Far, Search Inside Tora Bora Caves Hasn't Turned Bin Laden

Aired December 18, 2001 - 07:03   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Right now we're going to move on to the latest from Afghanistan, where there are conflicting reports about whether two U.S. military transport planes came under missile fire just hours ago. Some of the first reports said the two separate attacks occurred 30 minutes apart in an area south of Kandahar.

CNN's Mike Chinoy joins us by video phone from southern Afghanistan to help clear things up -- good morning, Mike. What's the latest on this note this morning?

MIKE CHINOY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Paula.

Well, in the darkness of the night here in Afghanistan, it's not that easy to determine what's actually happening. And what the marines here on the ground are saying is that there were two planes flying last night. They did see flashes which they thought might be anti-aircraft missiles. They sent out, they took evasive action and they say that no one was hit and they're not sure at this point whether it really was stinger missiles or not.

That's why the apparent backtracking. Earlier we had been given slightly clearer signals that it might have been stinger missiles, but the bottom line is they saw something. They're not really sure what.

The fact is, though, that there are lots of stinger anti-aircraft missiles around this area, many of them in the possession of the Taliban, supplied originally by the U.S. to the anti-Soviet Afghan fighters in the 1980s. And the episode, whatever it may have been, underscores the fact that there is still a great deal of danger for the U.S. troops operating here on the ground.

ZAHN: Mike, let's move on to the overriding issue about what's going on in Kandahar. There was great concern expressed yesterday about the number of mines surrounding or ringing the airport there. Can you give us an update on that?

CHINOY: Well, just a few minutes ago we heard another couple of explosions. The marines continue to set off these controlled blasts as they detonate the unexploded ordinance that they've collected here. This is just another ever present danger. But it hasn't stopped them from moving ahead with other key elements of their mission. Today we were shown the detention center that is expected to house between 100 and 300 al Qaeda detainees, fighters who were either captured or who surrendered during the battle for Tora Bora. We're told some of those detainees may arrive here at Kandahar Airport as early as Tuesday evening.

The detention center is surrounded by three layers of barbed wire. It will have armed guards both inside and outside. We're told the detainees will be bound, their hands will be bound and they'll be roped together when they arrive and they'll be searched very, very thoroughly. The marines want to avoid any repetition of the very bloody prison uprising that al Qaeda and Taliban fighters staged at that big prison in Mazir-i-Sharif a few weeks ago.

There's a team of FBI agents here, as well, and once the prisoners have been processed -- and the marines emphasize they'll be treated with the same kind of consideration given to normal prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention, they will face interrogation from these FBI agents seeking to learn any information about future al Qaeda terrorist plans and any information about some of the terrorist attacks that have occurred in the past, not only the World Trade Center, but the USS Cole in Yemen and the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania -- Paula.

ZAHN: Mike, there is another report being circulated this morning that Pashtun tribes are ready to attack a mountain stronghold where they believe Mullah Omar might be. Can you confirm that for us? Have you heard anything about that?

CHINOY: No, I have no way to confirm that and I've asked the marines about it. They don't either. What they have said is that those kinds of operations are not being staged by the marines. The marines' primary forces now is on maintaining this base as a detention center, getting the runway up to speed so larger planes can come in and the search on the ground for Mullah Omar and the other fleeing Taliban and al Qaeda fighters in this part of the country is primarily being conducted by the local new Afghan government forces, although clearly there are U.S. special forces and members of some of the other coalition armed forces in small numbers in the area as well and I suspect that the local government forces are getting some sort of assistance. But we're not being told any of the details -- Paula.

ZAHN: All right, thank you very much, Mike Chinoy for covering all that ground for us this morning.

So far the search inside the Tora Bora caves hasn't turned up Osama bin Laden.

But as CNN's Nic Robertson reports, the searchers are not walking out empty-handed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Eastern Alliance fighters beckon towards a small hole in the hillside deep in the Tora Bora range. From the outside, little to hint at what's hidden behind this modest opening, an Aladdin's cave of armaments. But this lethal stash was collected by Osama bin Laden.

Chinese-made heavy machine gun rounds in cases untidily packed almost to the roof of this al-Qaeda cave. Close by, mortar bombs lined up against the wall.

(on camera): There are many more caves like this one in these mountains, and highly likely, many more stuffed full of ammunition, ammunition the al-Qaeda never got time to use.

(voice-over): Outside, the destruction hints at the heavy bombing in the last few weeks. No evidence, however, that despite their massive stockpiles, al-Qaeda fighters stood their ground here in battle. All indications point to a hasty retreat higher into the mountains. Indeed, of the 2000 al-Qaeda fighters U.S. officials believe were in these mountains, very few have been found. The truth is, no one really knows where Osama bin Laden is. He may still be in these mountains, hidden, perhaps, in a deep cave, or long gone across the border and into Pakistan.

Nic Robertson, CNN near Tora Bora in Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: The Pentagon is now saying Osama bin Laden's location is anyone's guess. But the president maintains it's just a matter of time before bin Laden is caught. But what about the rest of al Qaeda? Well, weeks ago we were told there were thousands fighting in the hills, yet the Alliance has found only a couple hundred al Qaeda fighters dead and alive.

So where are the rest? And could there have been a deal struck to let them go free?

CNN military analyst General Don Shepperd joins us now from Hartford, Connecticut. The man is on the move this week. Thanks, General.

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), U.S. AIR FORCE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good morning, Paula.

ZAHN: I wanted to start off by getting your reaction to some of what the president said about the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden. Let's replay a small part of what he said in the news conference yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, the Pakistanis will help us and they are helping us look for not only one, Osama bin Laden, but for all the al Qaeda murderers and killers. They will be brought to justice and it's just a matter of time as far as I'm concerned. We get all kinds of reports that he's in a cave, that he's not in the cave. That he's escaped, that he hadn't escaped. There's all kinds of speculation but when the dust clears, we'll find out where he is and he'll be brought to justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Do you agree with that conclusion of the president?

SHEPPERD: I do...

ZAHN: Will he be found? Will he be brought to justice?

SHEPPERD: I do, Paula. I think that we are seeing what we were warned about early on. We're all used to thinking about this as a war and it's much more like an international police effort at the end game where we are searching all over the world, we're searching through police agencies, we're searching through economic means and financial means, as well as the military operations going on.

I think we'll chase these people for a long time in a lot of areas, but I think we'll eventually get them. The world's a big place, but it's getting smaller and smaller for al Qaeda and the senior Taliban out there.

ZAHN: But it seems that the prime speculation this morning is that perhaps Osama bin Laden is already in Pakistan. Now, we talked a little bit about this yesterday. It is true those borders along the northwest part of Pakistan are extremely porous.

SHEPPERD: Yes, indeed. Of course, the day before yesterday we were saying he's definitely in Tora Bora and that he had been heard on the radio. The harsh fact is we don't know where he is. He could be in Pakistan along those porous borders. He's got a lot of support in that area, a lot of sympathy. He's also got a lot of money to buy people's sympathy and he could be in other countries, as well. And he could have been there a long time ago.

We have reason to believe that he was in Tora Bora and, in fact, he may still be there. It could be that as we go on we're going to find him in one of these deep caves there. But it's going to be maybe a longer search than we thought.

ZAHN: We shouldn't be surprised by the fact that intelligence officials picked up some sort of communications on Saturday, they believe by Osama bin Laden, and then here we are four days later and there's no trace of him. Should we be surprised by that?

SHEPPERD: No, again, I think, first of all, we have a large area there that we're dealing with. It's a large mountain range in the Tora Bora area between two valleys and you've got about 2,500 troops in each valley closing in on the top of those mountains. That's not a lot of people. A big area like that can swallow up a lot of people and there are hundreds, even reportedly thousands of caves. So now it's a cave by cave search.

He could still be in one of those areas or he could be in Pakistan. But you've also got the Pakistani military looking for him and the last thing Pakistan wants is Osama bin Laden operating from their territory. So again, I think over time we will get him. I just don't know how long it's going to take, Paula. ZAHN: Let's talk about the numbers a little bit more here this morning, because initially we were told there were thousands of al Qaeda fighters. Now that we said the U.S. has a hundred of them or so, either dead or alive, where are the rest of them?

SHEPPERD: Well, these are murky numbers. Remember at the beginning of the war the estimate was that there were 50,000 Taliban and 17,000 al Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan. The numbers have been up and down. The harsh reality is we didn't know in the beginning and we still don't know now. Reportedly in the Tora Bora area there were somewhere between 200 and 2,000 was the beginning. Then the estimate became 200 to 1,000. And now we really don't know.

Again, what's happening is that we are killing and capturing these people. We'll take some of them to the Kandahar and we'll find out about their troop strength. We'll interrogate them. We'll find out more about them and we'll find out also where they're going and over a long period of time in many countries I believe we'll get these people.

ZAHN: Let's close out this morning by talking about the role money plays. You mentioned earlier on it wouldn't be inconceivable that Osama bin Laden has already attempted to buy his freedom, perhaps if he's gone into Pakistan, and we know that a number of these al Qaeda leaders apparently have bought their freedom from the northern opposition, from the opposition forces.

SHEPPERD: Yes, remember in a military operation the first reports are always wrong. And so we've heard these reports in the last couple of days that there has been some deals struck. That wouldn't be out of the ordinary. You saw in Kandahar big predictions about pitched battles and then all of a sudden Kandahar seemed to be negotiated away with a negotiated handing over. And these people may have been allowed to vanish or they may have just vanished on their own.

So it's not unthinkable that this happened and money plays a big part in this, money and, of course, negotiating for freedom for your life by turning over territory.

But again, even those people, even though these people have dispersed, you now have a lot of people out there in Afghanistan looking for them and mad at them. So, again, over a period of time I think we will capture these people in Afghanistan and in other countries and I think money and rewards, just like in the civil system, will play a big part.

ZAHN: All right, General Don Shepperd, as always, thanks for your wealth of information here this morning. Where are you traveling to next? Hartford, Connecticut today. Where are you going to be tomorrow?

SHEPPERD: Tomorrow in Tucson, Paula.

ZAHN: All right, well, we'll be following you around the country, sir. Thanks again for your time.

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