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American Morning
Richard Butler's Analysis of Current Afghan Situation and Iraq Information
Aired December 19, 2001 - 07:32 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Time to move on to what's going on in Afghanistan. So far alliance forces, they have found no more than several hundred al Qaeda fighters in the mountains and tunnels of Tora Bora. Yet originally, you might remember, there was speculation there were thousands. Well today, the "New York Times" reports that hundreds may have slipped across the border into Pakistan. We already told you about today's gunfight between some of them and Pakistani security fighters.
For his view on all this, we once again turn to the former U.N. chief weapons inspector, now with the Council on Foreign relations, our ambassador in residence, Richard Butler -- good morning.
RICHARD BUTLER, FORMER U.N. CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: So what do you make of these reports? They're credible reports that hundreds of these al Qaeda and Taliban fighters have gone into Pakistan and have already blended into Pashtun tribes.
BUTLER: It's very disturbing. We know that there was some trading going on, liberty for some of these people in return for them vacating the territory they were holding. But it appears that some of them have just slipped back into normal Afghan society, some of them have gone across the border into Pakistan blending in with the Pashtuns. What this -- and there has been some fighting, as you point out.
Now what this raises in my mind is the really great importance of the peacekeeping force. It's been agreed to put one together -- an international peacekeeping force. It'll be coming in the next few days. It was resisted initially by the incoming Afghan defense minister. He wanted it to be small, and the force commander said come on, we can't do that. I mean unless we have a certain size, several thousands, we're not going to be able to do the job. There's also the issue of what arms will they carry, what will be their rights to shoot and so on. That's a very important issue. They're on the way, but those issues are not yet resolved.
ZAHN: It's a completely lawless society. You got to have a peacekeeping force that has some kind of teeth, don't you, in order for this to stand any chance of working? BUTLER: Well absolutely. They -- any peacekeeping force has to have one-third of them at any time on down time, replenishing equipment, having a rest, OK. So if you've got 1,000 people, you've only ever got 600 in the field. They also have to be able to defend themselves. Then there's the issue of what power can they use to go after the bad guys like these Taliban who have slipped back into Afghan society. I would agree that this needs to be a serious force. I think that argument is going in that direction.
But interestingly, Paula, it's an argument that's been had and there's been some opposition from the Afghan side to this being a serious force. I hope it turns out to be a serious force.
ZAHN: There is an incredibly disturbing report out in the "Washington Post" this morning...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... about during the five-year rule of the Taliban that hundreds of young...
BUTLER: Yes.
ZAHN: ... girls were abducted by the Taliban...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... to be used as personal property...
BUTLER: Absolutely.
ZAHN: ... by Taliban leaders...
BUTLER: Absolutely. We know...
ZAHN: ... for sex.
BUTLER: We know it to be true. I mean it is just breathtaking hypocrisy. You know these are the people who took women into the soccer stadium, shot them through the head in public on some suspicion of adultery or some other crime, yet we now know they were abducting women and children, selling them to -- into the sex trade to rich Arabs such as Saudis. We also know that they themselves involved themselves in some sexual abuse of young Afghan girls. I mean breathtaking, hideous hypocrisy.
ZAHN: It's (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You just mentioned the Saudis. "The Wall Street Journal" is reporting that some of the Saudi clerics...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... named in the bin Laden videotape are not the folks that they're presented to be. The Saudi Arabians wrote those folks off as what? BUTLER: Well they said this is just the normal kind of cleric that we have to deal with and they're not as extreme as you in the United States are suggesting. I mean maybe it's a relative spectrum, Paula, but it's very disturbing. What we now see is that these clerics who are extreme are people that the Saudi government are actually afraid of. You know they're afraid that if they criticize them that they might harm members of the Saudi Royal Family. There's even talk of assassination.
So you know what we saw on that videotape, the reports from that other guy to Osama bin Laden about the sermons that were being given by these clerics, praising him for September 11 and so on, some officials of the Saudi government are saying they're not so extreme.
ZAHN: Wow.
BUTLER: These are mainstream clerics. I mean it's very disturbing.
ZAHN: A lot of -- a lot of different layers for digestion.
BUTLER: Hey, as we go, just tell you quickly, there's an Iraqi defector who's just been interviewed in Bangkok with some really interesting things to say about what Saddam's been doing with his weapons of mass destruction. We haven't got time now, but we're going to hear more about that. It's -- I saw a...
ZAHN: Well I would assume he's growing his (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BUTLER: Absolutely. I saw a transcript last night, Paula, and it's pretty disturbing.
ZAHN: Maybe tomorrow you can get us some more information...
BUTLER: OK. OK.
ZAHN: ... on that and share it with us all.
BUTLER: OK.
ZAHN: Richard Butler, thanks so much.
BUTLER: Good.
ZAHN: See you tomorrow morning.
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