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American Morning

Tribunal Also Tried Croats, Bosnians; Interview of David Scheffer

Aired February 13, 2002 - 09:07   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Not since Nuremberg have we seen anything like the war crimes trial of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic.

He is charged with crimes against humanity. The man allegedly responsible for masterminding years of torture during the Balkans war. Though he doesn't recognize the war crimes tribunal, today Milosevic may get his chance to address the court.

CNN's Christiane Amanpour joins us now with the very latest from The Hague -- good morning, Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Paula, good morning, and indeed Milosevic will take a chance, and he will take that chance. His legal advisers here say the question is when. The prosecuting team is still wrapping up its opening statements today. Today is day two. We think, we understand they will be done by the end of today's session. We do not know whether that means Milosevic will start his -- opening statement today, or whether he will go first thing tomorrow.

Today, the prosecuting team has continued its methodical work, through the kind of evidence it plans to bring, and the kind of strategy it plans during its long trial of Slobodan Milosevic on three indictments: Indictments for Kosovo, Bosnia, and Croatia. He is also accused of the highest crime under international law, and that is the crime of genocide. 66 separate counts of various different violations of the laws and customs of war, the Geneva Conventions, and an array of war crimes.

In the court today, the prosecuting attorney showed tape of a now notorious motif of the Bosnian war, and that was the concentration camp that was found by reporters in Bosnia back in June of 1992, showing emaciated Muslims who had been herded into what they called a "concentration camp," and many, also, had been killed. The prosecuting attorney also evoking the memory of that long siege of Sarajevo, saying that not since World War II had there been such a siege, such a bombardment of a capitol city or any civilian city in the course of what we saw during the Balkan War.

So, the prosecuting team continuing to lay out their evidence, talking about the killings, the expulsions in Kosovo, and, of course, now the details of what happened in Kosovo are under discussion inside that court as Slobodan Milosevic listens, writes notes, and waits to take his turn to answer what he has just heard -- Paula.

ZAHN: Thanks so much, Christiane.

And this leads us to the big question this hour: Is Slobodan Milosevic trying to rewrite history?

Joining us now to talk more about the former Yugoslav leader and his war crimes trial, Ambassador David Scheffer, senior fellow at the U.S. Institute of Peace, and a former ambassador at large for war crimes issues in the Clinton administration -- welcome, good to see you.

DAVID SCHEFFER, SENIOR FELLOW, INSTITUTE OF PEACE: Thank you, Paula. Good to be here.

ZAHN: You may have just heard a little bit of what Christiane had to say about the strategy the prosecution plans to use, and this comes at a time when we have seen some people staunchly defend Milosevic, and in particular in an L.A. Times editorial yesterday saying that Milosevic is a scapegoat.

I want you to analyze what they had to say yesterday. They charged that "the individual charges against Milosevic are a double- edged sword: Every one of them could be applied to the wartime deeds of Croats and Bosnian Muslims, with regard to Serbs and each other in a string of nasty three-way armed conflicts."

SCHEFFER: Well, it's actually...

ZAHN: How would -- what would...

SCHEFFER: I'm sorry.

ZAHN: Yeah -- what would the prosecution do with a charge like that?

SCHEFFER: Well, I think they don't necessarily have to refute that. After all, the tribunal has been prosecuting Croats, it has been prosecuting Bosnians, and particularly with Croatians, it has been prosecuting very high officials of the Croatian government and of the Bosnian-Croat population in trials, so they have had some very high-level ones. They were very close to indicting Prime Minister Tudjman of Croatia, but he died prior to their ability to file an indictment against him, but he was clearly going to be indicted.

So, I don't think this old argument of is there enough balance in the tribunal's work really stands up anymore. If you look at the facts of how the tribunal has worked, it has been prosecuting Croats and Bosnians.

ZAHN: How difficult will it be for the prosecution to prove that Milosevic is responsible for the genocide. You hear people out there saying, look, he never went out in the field. He never directly ordered anybody to kill civilians, how hard will that be to make stick? SCHEFFER: Well, I think at this stage -- this is going to be, probably, a two-year trial. You never want to say that it is going to be easy, but they have an enormous amount of evidence. Some of the evidence that you need for this kind of prosecution, which is superior responsibility, does not need to draw a bright red line from the actual commission of the crime in the field to the leader himself. For example, explicitly ordering that crime.

He simply needs to simply know that it exist -- that the crime happened, or he should have known, and if didn't take any action to correct the crime, in other words to punish those who committed the crime, because he has the authority to do that, then under this legal theory of superior responsibility, he can be prosecuted. So, when you're at the top of the pyramid like this, on the one hand it's somewhat difficult to draw those lines. But on the other hand, it is a bit easier, because he really should have known, and he should have acted.

ZAHN: In closing, how do you expect Mr. Milosevic to defend himself? How do you think he will do?

SCHEFFER: He will continue to present, I think, politically inspired arguments that may play to certain audiences, particularly in his country, but I don't think they'll be arguments that will be very persuasive to the judges. They've heard all of these arguments before. Some of them have even been litigated in prior cases and disposed of. So, I think at some point, Mr. Milosevic will have to decide first, should he get defense counsel to really put on a legal defense, and secondly, after two years, perhaps, of political arguments, his audience may get somewhat bored with him.

ZAHN: All right. You made that prediction here. Ambassador David Scheffer, we appreciate your insights this morning. We'll be coming to you often over the next several years as we continue to follow the progress of this action in the war tribunals.

SCHEFFER: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Thank you. Good to see you.

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