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American Morning
Richard Butler on Al Qaeda and Taliban Financing
Aired February 19, 2002 - 07:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: There are new reports that even as Taliban and al Qaeda forces were fleeing Afghanistan under the weight of American bombs, they were finding ways to take millions of dollars in gold bullion out of the country with them. What does that mean in terms of whether or not they still have the means of financing future terror operations?
For his view on that and some other fascinating stuff in the papers this morning, we're joined by Richard Butler, our ambassador in residence.
Good morning to you.
RICHARD BUTLER, FORMER UNITED NATIONS CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Good morning, Jack.
CAFFERTY: How'd they get out of the country will all this gold?
BUTLER: Well it's really interesting, there's a traditional system of moving money around the Middle East region and the West Asian region called howala (ph) and it deals in paper money but it also deals in gold. The point about gold is that it disappears, you know unlike a paper bill that's got a serial number.
CAFFERTY: Sure.
BUTLER: Gold can be melted down. Gold is ubiquitous. It's everywhere there. It's a deeply valued commodity. It's $200 and -- almost $300 an ounce now.
CAFFERTY: How much did they get out with? Do we have any idea?
BUTLER: I haven't -- I don't know, Jack, but the money is really important to them, obviously to finance their operations.
CAFFERTY: Sure.
BUTLER: It's multiple, multiple millions of dollars worth. What we now know is that they were shipping this stuff out of Afghanistan through Pakistan to Dubai. Dubai in the Middle East is the sort of gold capital, and through the howala system disappearing we think to be distributed to the various al Qaeda networks around the world to finance their operations. It's an amazing story. Just think of it, this most traditional of metals, $300 an ounce, and... CAFFERTY: Going through...
BUTLER: ... big quantities out there.
CAFFERTY: Going out through Pakistan you said?
BUTLER: That's right.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
BUTLER: That's right.
CAFFERTY: Our allies in this thing.
BUTLER: And financing al Qaeda. Yes.
CAFFERTY: All right.
BUTLER: Yes.
CAFFERTY: There is a truly fascinating and compelling story on the front page of "The Times"...
BUTLER: Right.
CAFFERTY: ... about the proposal in Washington to start up, for want of a better way to describe it, an office of disinformation, shades of Tokyo Rose. They call it the Office of Strategic Influence.
BUTLER: My God, Jack...
CAFFERTY: What...
BUTLER: Jack, what genius thought of that name? It's a Godsend for the evening comedy shows.
CAFFERTY: Sure.
BUTLER: The Office of Strategic Influence.
CAFFERTY: Sounds pretty important.
BUTLER: What are we going to have next, you know the Secretary for Correct Thinking and Truth?
CAFFERTY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BUTLER: I mean we can make fun of this, but I want to be serious about it for a moment. I am appalled and I think right thinking people should be appalled. We are told that part of what we're going to do to win the war on terror is that we're going to create lies, not just to deal with our enemies, but to make our allies feel better and think better about, you know, our objectives.
Jack, the war that we've got on our hands here is against people who are not only terrorists but who routinely brutalize their people and tell lies to the world. Now what are we going to do, join them in their own game? I mean this smacks of Joseph Gurbels (ph).
CAFFERTY: Well I...
BUTLER: It's just terrible.
CAFFERTY: As I understand the piece, it has not received final approval as yet, and...
BUTLER: I hope it doesn't.
CAFFERTY: ... in all fairness, I -- this is not the first time, at least in my experience, that I've heard of untruths emanating from Washington, D.C. I mean this happens on a fairly regular basis...
BUTLER: Are you asking me to believe that?
CAFFERTY: ... on a whole -- on a whole variety of issues, does it not?
BUTLER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CAFFERTY: What strategic purpose do they think this might serve?
BUTLER: Yes.
CAFFERTY: I mean obviously they have something in mind here, what are they trying to do?
BUTLER: Jack, we talked on this program months ago about the need for the real physical war to be matched by an information war in the sense that a competition against lies that we've got to win. Now we knew from the beginning that al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, those guys would simply lie about what was happening in the field and we saw it straight away.
CAFFERTY: Sure.
BUTLER: They said that there were civilian casualties where there weren't and so on. We know that Saddam Hussein does the thing routinely -- the same thing routinely from Baghdad tells lies about what's really happening. Our task is to correct those lies.
Now I put it to you as simply as this, if our cause is just, if our truth is true, that is surely all we need to tell. We need to tell it in a widespread way, we need to tell it better than we're telling it now, but if we cross this line, Jack, and we have a ministry for correct thinking and the -- and the real truth and so on,...
CAFFERTY: Yes.
BUTLER: ... we have crossed to the other side. I deplore what is being considered. I think it's not worthy of this great country, and I hope it's reconsidered.
CAFFERTY: Fair enough. Doesn't seem to fit with the president's personality either. He seems to be a kind of a straight talking fellow who will sort of tell you what he's thinking at the time,...
BUTLER: Well,...
CAFFERTY: ... sometimes to his own chagrin, but nevertheless he's (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BUTLER: Well look at the "axis of evil" thing.
CAFFERTY: Yes, exactly, that's what I was thinking about.
BUTLER: Jack, I would hope that you're right about that and that you know the powers that be in Washington will nip this one in the bud. It's a really bad idea. Anyway, they just need to see the comedy shows, that'll make the story clear I think.
CAFFERTY: Yes, Jay Leno and Letterman will have a ball with this.
BUTLER: Exactly.
CAFFERTY: Thank you, sir, nice to see you as always.
BUTLER: Nice to see you.
CAFFERTY: Richard Butler.
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