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American Morning

Journalist Discusses Investigation of Bout Arms Network

Aired February 27, 2002 - 08:05   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Up front this morning, the U.S. military is now setting its sights on a new front in the war on terror. The former Soviet Republic of Georgia will be getting some American help in the form of military hardware and military advisors, as it tries to rid the country of al Qaeda terrorists within its borders.

CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr joins us now with some of the details -- good morning, Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula. Well, Pentagon officials tell us that no final decision has been made, but it looks like as many as 200 U.S. military troops, including Special Forces, may be headed to the Soviet Republic of Georgia.

Now, they are not going to be involved in combat per se. What they are going to do is train and equip the Georgian military in counterterrorism. In fact, there are already 10 U.S. military transport helicopters in Georgia as part of this overall effort.

This all began last year in a visit to Washington by Georgian president, Eduard Shevardnadze. He was asking for assistance. He has been battling Chechen guerrillas, who have crossed the border into his country from Chechnya, and ever since last September of what he believes is a growing number of al Qaeda-related fighters, who are operating in his country as well.

What this all is is really part of the new way of doing business on the part of the U.S. military in the war on terrorism. Instead of sending in large numbers of U.S. ground troops to do fighting against al Qaeda around the world, what the U.S. is embarking on is a strategy of training and equipping foreign militaries to fight al Qaeda in their own country. We are already doing that. The U.S. military is already doing that in the Philippines, of course. Georgia may be the next place.

And there is a similar program in the works that could happen soon in Yemen in the Persian Gulf, and of course, also in Afghanistan. That's what the U.S. is really going to do in the months ahead, train and equip an Afghan military to take on the long-term fight against the al Qaeda in that country.

It's not certain when the troops will go to Georgia, but once a final decision is made, it could happen within a matter of weeks -- Paula. ZAHN: And, Barbara, at the same time, we are also learning some new details about a major player from that region, a Russian arms dealer named Victor Bout. What do we know about this guy, and how dangerous is he?

STARR: Well, this guy is a very nasty piece of work, every bit as nasty as Osama bin Laden in his own way. Victor Bout is a Russian arms dealer, notorious, possibly the world's largest arms trafficker. U.S. and European intelligence officials have had their eye on him for the last several years. He has been running about 60 transport planes out of the United Arab Emirates in the Persian Gulf.

He runs arms all across Africa and Asia, but what's really interesting is in the last several weeks, British military intelligence, operating in Afghanistan, has found what they believe is solid evidence that Victor Bout ran guns -- ran weapons into the Taliban and the al Qaeda in Afghanistan right up until September 11, and other evidence showing that he was running weapons technology into Iraq.

So now, Interpol has launched a worldwide manhunt for Victor Bout. They want to get their hands on him, question him and find out what he knows about Taliban and al Qaeda operations -- Paula.

ZAHN: All right. Barbara Starr -- thanks so much for that update.

And journalist Phillip Van Niekerk with the Center for Public Integrity has investigated Victor Bout's global arms network extensively. He joins us now from Washington -- welcome -- good to see you.

PHILLIP VAN NIEKERK, CENTER FOR PUBLIC INTEGRITY: Hi, Paula.

ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit more about how long the United States has known about what Mr. Bout has been up to.

VAN NIEKERK: Well, I think that the United States might have known about him for a very long time. I think it has only become a significant issue since Mr. Bout has been linked to weaponry to the Taliban and the al Qaeda. I think if you go back into the early '90s, Mr. Bout has sold weapons and been involved, fueling conflicts in many, many regions and wars in Africa.

I think this was a little bit below the radar screen, and I guess he didn't feature as a major player, or rather western intelligence agencies weren't that interested in him at that point. I think when he became identified with sales to regimes and movements, including the Abu Sayyef in the Philippines and the Taliban and al Qaeda, I think he then became very interesting to western intelligence agencies.

ZAHN: All right. We have just put up on the screen some more information about him. Can you help us understand how it is that a 35-year-old man could build this very complex network that he was operating? Where did he get his money from? VAN NIEKERK: Well, I think there are a lot of unanswered questions in this whole thing. Clearly, Mr. Bout starts out with an intelligence background, and there is evidence that he had links to some intelligence agencies. He certainly must have had protectors in various governments around the world.

Also, he established a network of contacts, which included elements of the Russian mafia. He established relationships with various African leaders. And he established, I guess, what you would call a worldwide import-export business in that he was doing weapons into these regions, but not necessarily taking cash out. The rebel movement doesn't have the cash. It pays in diamonds or in the case of Afghanistan, it might pay narcotics.

So he was very good at doing deals. He was very good at delivering, because he had something like 60 Antonovs and a couple of Ilyushins. But he was also very good at striking strategic deals with movements and regimes. In some cases, he was supplying to both sides in wars in the Congo, in Angola, certainly in Afghanistan.

ZAHN: You made a point a little bit earlier on that I think is so important that your investigation shows that he had to have been provided some kind of protection by some governments. Is it your belief the Russians were -- Russian intelligence officers were protecting this guy?

VAN NIEKERK: You know, I could not go that far and say that on this program. But I do believe that there are investigations under way to establish exactly who was protecting him, who were the individuals. I think he had contacts with the Ukraine. He certainly had high level contacts with officials in the United Arab Emirates, and he had, as I said, a number of contacts with African leaders and politicians in some of the conflict zones that he was selling arms into.

ZAHN: And, Phillip, right before you came on, Barbara Starr was reporting that some documents that have surfaced in a cave in Afghanistan clearly show that Mr. Bout was also providing weapons to the Taliban. Is there any direct link between Mr. Bout and Osama bin Laden?

VAN NIEKERK: Well, we believe that there is a personal link between the two, which we are looking at. But clearly, his links with the Taliban go back to at least 1996, when a plane that he was leasing with weapons that he was taking, in fact, to the Rabanni government in Kabul was stopped by a Taliban MiG, and he got into negotiations to get the Russian crew released. And at that point established -- way back then established links with the Taliban. It is our evidence, which we have in documentation form, which shows that from then on, he was actually dealing with the Taliban.

ZAHN: And you have just got about 10 seconds to answer this. I guess people find it striking that the U.N. has known about this guy for years, and we are just starting to talk about him now. Should the U.S. -- could the U.S. have done more to stop this? VAN NIEKERK: Oh, definitely. I believe that the whole question of the global arms trafficking network has to be tackled, and you know, we shouldn't wait until it becomes a strategic threat to the west. I mean, when a guy like this sells weapons into the war zones of Africa, there should be a better global monitoring system, which tracks him down and puts him out of business.

ZAHN: Phillip Van Niekerk, we appreciate your sharing some of your investigation with us this morning -- appreciate your time.

VAN NIEKERK: Thank you very much.

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