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American Morning

Interview of Jim Copple, Nadine Strossen

Aired March 12, 2002 - 09:42   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: "Big Question" at this hour: can your neighbor help fight terrorism? Well, later today, Homeland Security Chief Tom Ridge will unveil a new color-coded terror alert system, and President Bush wants to enlist neighborhood patrols in the war on terror, but critics say the plan will do more harm than good.

Last week, Attorney General Ashcroft said the administration would provide the national Neighborhood Watch program with an additional $2 million to fight terrorism on a grassroots level. And the head of the American Civil Liberties Union, Nadine Strossen, says it is a prescription for abuse. She joins us from New York this morning. Also with us this morning from Washington, Jim Copple, head of the National Crime Prevention Council, which oversees the Neighborhood Watch program.

Welcome. Good to have both of you with us this morning.

NADINE STROSSEN, AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION: Good morning, Paula.

JIM COPPLE, NATIONAL CRIME PREVENTION COUNCIL: Thank you. Good morning.

ZAHN: Jim, let's talk a little bit about what this additional money will provide. How much more effective will these Neighborhood Watches be?

COPPLE: Well, the intention of the Department of Justice and the White House is to double the number of Neighborhood Watch programs, programs will watch out and help out in neighborhoods. We need to increase citizen engagement, this isn't about government intrusion, it is about increasing citizen participation, caring for our neighbors, watching out for our neighbors, looking for suspicious behavior and actions.

It's not about profiling people. It is about about getting citizens engaged. That's what we've heard from the American citizenry. They want to be involved, they want to help out in their neighborhoods, and this gives us an opportunity to expand a program that has had enormous success over the past 30 years in preventing crime and violence and substance abuse in local communities.

ZAHN: So, in trying to better educate some of these volunteers, I know that your organization has put out the "Citizen's Preparedness Guide," which is basically a how-to guide for communities on identifying suspicious activities. In the booklet, you say that a suspicious person -- quote -- "is anyone who claims membership in an organization that espouses innocent people." What does that mean?

COPPLE: Well, basically what we are asking citizens to do, if they hear conversation or see behavior or actions that are consonant with terrorist activity or violence, or crime in their local communities, that they should report that to local law enforcement. Now, we are asking them to focus on behavior. It is very interesting, Paula, that citizens on Flight 63 from Paris to Miami, when they saw suspicious behavior of a gentleman trying to light a fuse in a tennis shoe, they took action. That clearly was disruptive behavior, out of the norm types of behavior. We are asking citizens in neighborhoods to keep their eyes open and their ears open, to see if there is any kind of behavior or activity that could be a threat. But more important, Neighborhood Watch breaks down isolation in our neighborhoods. Isolation breeds fear. If we get to know our neighbors, and are sensitive to what our neighbors' behaviors and actions are, we can better support each other in local neighborhoods and communities.

ZAHN: All right, Nadine, what's wrong with anything that Jim has just said? He said this program is not about profiling, it is essentially engaging the eyes and ears of people who really need to be aware of what's going down in their neighborhoods, and he just gave the example of alert passengers being able to sort of identify Richard Reid, or, potentially, as someone who was going to harm folks on this plane.

STROSSEN: Paula, I certainly want to commend and thank Jim and all of the active volunteers. I, too, am almost a full-time volunteer. So, I really appreciate and applaud the wonderful goals of this program.

However, if we look at the reality of who is being fingered all over the country, by neighbors and government officials alike, as -- quote -- "suspicious or acting outside the norm" -- close quote -- unfortunately, there is a pattern of scapegoating people only, or predominantly, on the basis of who they are, and not on the basis of how they behave. We have had hundreds and hundreds of incidents of completely innocent individuals who just happen to be from certain parts of the world, or to have certain religions, and, of course, I'm talking about the Middle East or South Asia and the Islamic faith, who have been reported to the FBI. And whether these neighbors are doing so because they are not so well trained or whether they are doing it out of malice, the fact is that we have already had one individual convicted for having maliciously reported on a neighbor from the Middle East as a suspected terrorist.

ZAHN: All right. Let's let Jim react to that. How do you ensure that whether, you know, this is a -- as Nadine just said, whether it is intentional or not, that this doesn't happen, where you have innocent people locked up simply because they were fingered, because of racial identification, or some sort of attachment to a religion? COPPLE: Well, I would say three things, Paula. One, is the ACLU has had an important mission of protecting civil liberties in the history of this country, and I have great respect for their organization and what they're about. However, they're missing the mark on this. It is unfortunate that we would paint with such a broad brush that citizens in this country who want to become civilly engaged and volunteer, would be stereotyped as automatically going to profiling. These citizen councils and these Neighborhood Watch programs that are part of USA Freedom Corps, are going to be trained. They are going to receive additional training. Profiling of any type or nature should absolutely be prohibited, and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But to assume that Neighborhood Watch programs, that have been a part of the 30-year history of this country's effort to reduce crime and violence, are intentionally profiling people of Arab descent or Southeast Asian, is totally off mark. We have citizens who want to be engaged, and want to make a difference, and this is their opportunity to do that. They will be trained.

ZAHN: Nadine -- sorry to cut you off, I want to give you equal time here. Nadine, you have got about 15 seconds for a final thought this morning.

STROSSEN: Unfortunately, if we look at the pattern of government behavior as well as citizen behavior, we constantly see profiling, especially in any time of national crisis. Many people, unfortunately, think that if you are from a certain part of the world, if you look like the terrorists in certain ways, the hijackers, then you, too, must be suspect. So, I would rather rely on trained law enforcement officials, although I certainly appreciate your commitment in principle, Jim, to avoid profiling.

ZAHN: We are going to have to leave there. Nadine Strossen of the ACLU, and Jim Copple, COO of the National Crime Prevention Council. Thank you both for your time, appreciate both of your perspectives.

COPPLE: Thank you.

STROSSEN: Thank you, Paula.

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