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American Morning
Public Schools Say Some Schoolyard Games Encourage Exclusion, Bullying, Theft and Aggression
Aired April 03, 2002 - 08:23 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They're the games children play -- steal the bacon, tag, musical chairs, cops and robbers, cowboys and Indians, the list goes on and on. We all played them when we were young. And while they may seem harmless, many public school officials think there is a hidden danger in these activities and they're banning them. Other games, as well, from schoolyards all over the country. They say these games encourage exclusion, bullying, theft, aggression and cite zero tolerance policies for anything resembling violence at schools.
Civil rights activists argue the policies are much too harsh and, in fact, violate the kids' rights to free expression.
So that brings us to the question is zero tolerance running amok?
Joining us to talk about it from San Antonio, Texas, Vincent Ferrandino, who's the executive director of the National Association of Elementary School Principals, and from Charlottesville, Virginia, John Whitehead, who is president of the Rutherford Institute.
John, let me begin with you. Why are schools choosing to ban what certainly on the surface seems to be harmless activities of young kids? We all played these games.
JOHN WHITEHEAD, RUTHERFORD INSTITUTE: Well, zero tolerance policies seem to dictate that because what zero tolerance policies do, unfortunately, is they take away discretion from teachers to act, what we would call the lower level cases. We have a number of cases that we've been hdlg over the years that involve cops and robbers with their fingers. We have a case in New Jersey now where four young kindergarteners were playing bang bang with their fingers and...
CAFFERTY: Kindergartners? These are, what, five year olds?
WHITEHEAD: Kindergartners, yes.
CAFFERTY: Five year olds.
WHITEHEAD: Kids who don't even know what they're doing, yes.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
WHITEHEAD: And they were suspended from school. We have a case where a young fourth grader threatened to shoot a girl across the aisle with a spit wad. He was immediately suspended from school. That night he was awakened...
CAFFERTY: You know, if I had gotten kicked out of school every time I threw a spit wad at somebody, I wouldn't have gotten through the fourth grade before I was old enough to vote, probably.
WHITEHEAD: Me, too. But the problem was that night two policemen arrived at the home around midnight. They woke the family from sleep and told them they were investigating the alleged shooting incident. The school had actually turned this over to the police. And before that child could get back into school, he had to undergo psychological examination.
So now we're in a big lawsuit. So these are the kind of cases we're seeing.
CAFFERTY: All right, Vincent, let me ask you, what's behind this? What is it school officials are trying to accomplish and have these examples that we were just hearing, do they represent the thing going over the line? Have schools gone too far here?
VINCENT FERRANDINO, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF ELEMENTARY SCHOOL PRINCIPALS: Well, I think with regard to zero tolerance policies we have a case here of good intentions taken to an extreme.
CAFFERTY: Right.
FERRANDINO: In the case that, in the cases that were cited, clearly the decisions that were made there went beyond what we could consider to be a normal response to those kinds of situations. But we need to remember the genesis of these policies. These policies were developed by school boards in response to violence that was taking place in American schools. We've had over the last five years at least a dozen incidents or so where we've had several people killed, dozens injured and school boards developed policies in an effort to protect children.
Unfortunately, in drafting some of those policies, they've taken a great deal of discretion away from the school principals and the teachers with how to deal with some of these circumstances that's involved.
CAFFERTY: Now, are the school boards, I guess it's a reasonable question, are the school boards that you're talking about becoming the bullies in this situation and, in fact, taking civil liberties away from children? I mean kindergartners, 5-year-old kids being suspended for pointing their fingers at each other? I mean that's absurd.
FERRANDINO: Well, I think the school boards are most concerned with protecting the children. I think when they developed these policies they're concerned with safety and security for the students under their charge.
CAFFERTY: But is there any proof that playing cops and robbers when you're five years old leads to the Columbine shootings? I mean that seems to be a tremendous distance to travel to me.
FERRANDINO: Well, I would agree with you. I think...
WHITEHEAD: Well, let me interject here...
CAFFERTY: Yes?
WHITEHEAD: All the statistics show that the juvenile crime rate has held steady since the 1970s. Even during that, and the homicide rate among juveniles has gone down 70 percent in the last 10 or 15 years. During that same time, school suspensions have jumped, have doubled. And the question is why? Obviously the violence in the schools is not that great. What we've seen, though, and what I think what the schools really need to be focusing on is the multiple killings that seem to be on the rise. It isn't the kid that's going bang bang with his finger that's causing the problem...
FERRANDINO: And, John, we would agree. We would agree with that position. I think what needs to happen here is there needs to be some greater discretion built into these policies. I think as the courts...
WHITEHEAD: How do you give discretion...
FERRANDINO: Look, I think as boards look at this issue, what they need to do is identify the fact that when incidents of these types evolve, principals need to have the ability to make a determination is this truly a serious situation...
WHITEHEAD: But the teachers we talk to tell us...
FERRANDINO: ... that could lead to something further?
WHITEHEAD: Teachers we talk to in these cases tell us their hands are tied because the word zero tolerance says we can't tolerate anything.
FERRANDINO: I think we you're absolutely right.
WHITEHEAD: So why not do away with zero tolerance and have...
FERRANDINO: Well, I think the policies need to be revised.
WHITEHEAD: ... a weapons free policy.
FERRANDINO: That's precisely my point.
WHITEHEAD: Obviously, yes.
CAFFERTY: Is that where we have to...
(CROSSTALK)
CAFFERTY: Is that where we have to go here? The idea of zero tolerance, that's absolute by definition. And it excludes rational teachers who are dealing with kids on a day to day basis from having the ability to step in and address situations as they arise. The Columbine situation...
WHITEHEAD: So do away with zero tolerance.
CAFFERTY: ... you know, the Columbine situation...
WHITEHEAD: And have guns free, a gun free policy.
CAFFERTY: Aberrant violent behavior is as old as mankind and probably no policy set by a school board anywhere will be successful in combating that, right?
FERRANDINO: Right. I think whatever, what we call the policy becomes less of a concern to me than the fact that we need to provide protection for the students in the schools and we need to provide the discretion...
CAFFERTY: Sure.
FERRANDINO: ... for those with responsibility to exercise that discretion.
CAFFERTY: All right, gentlemen, we're going to have to leave it there.
WHITEHEAD: The point is we're not seeing the discretion. That's the point.
CAFFERTY: All right, we're going to have to stop there. It's obviously an interesting subject and I was unaware of the degree to which the Columbine situation and incidents similar to that had given rise to this kind of thing and it's a subject that obviously deserves some more debate.
I thank you for joining us this morning on AMERICAN MORNING and talking about it.
WHITEHEAD: Thank you.
FERRANDINO: Thank you.
CAFFERTY: John Whitehead, the president of the Rutherford Institute, and Vincent Ferrandino, who is the executive director of the National Association of Elementary School Principals.
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