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American Morning

Interview with Marc Gellman, Thomas Hartman, 'God Squad'

Aired April 24, 2002 - 09:42   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: There is grave concern right now about news from the Middle East and elsewhere in the world, and there are those who see something hidden in the headlines, something of biblical proportions.

In Bethlehem, the church built on the site where Christians believe Jesus was born has become a battlefield. In Afghanistan, we've seen a series of earthquakes that have left hundreds dead. And as if that is not enough, hordes of locusts are swarming all over the region.

Here at home, severe drought conditions plague the northeastern United States, and a Texas-size tornado rips through the Lone Star state.

So, what is it that is making people question their own safety and even their future? Well, joining us now to talk about that, the "God Squad," Rabbi Marc Gellman, Monsignor Thomas Hartman, better known, as we just said, the "God Squad."

Welcome back. Should we just hang it up right now? Is it over?

THOMAS HARTMAN, MONSIGNOR, "THE GOD SQUAD": This feeds into the way he thinks. He thinks the world -- every day he thinks the world is ending. He's ready for Scud missile attacks from Iraq today.

MARC GELLMAN, RABBI, "THE GOD SQUAD": Right. We told the people in the green room, Take all the bagels, because there -- you know, this afternoon there will be nothing left.

ZAHN: We shouldn't completely make light of this, because aren't there people who really believe that we are seeing a biblical prophecy open up on us?

HARTMAN: About 20 people in the parish at one time or another and said, Hey, the way the world is going, is this a sign from God? Is this the end of it all? Well, the truth is that none of us know when the end of the world is going to come. However, in the biblical text, the purpose is to say that there is evil in the world, there will be times of persecution, and in the midst of that, hold on to faith, and let each day be a day in which you do good, and avoid evil.

ZAHN: Now, I recognize, rabbi, this isn't your book, but I am going to read it anyway. GELLMAN: We don't warrantee that part.

ZAHN: All right. Matthew 24, chapter 4-14.

GELLMAN: I'm sorry. That's not -- we take no responsibility...

HARTMAN: If you were to read that part of the book, you would learn a lot.

GELLMAN: No, we don't, we don't. I'm sorry.

ZAHN: I will even let you read it though.

GELLMAN: It is too scary.

ZAHN: It is, "nation will rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places, and then the end will come."

GELLMAN: Yes, the only thing that is a little bit spooky, because if you go on with the verse, which you didn't, the next part says, And the Minnesota Twins and the Montreal Expos, they will both be leading their divisions and a priest...

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: This is blasphemy. Why are you letting this guy get away with this?

GELLMAN: ... and a priest and a rabbi will be best friends.

HARTMAN: If he would read the book...

GELLMAN: Look, Paula, this is -- the reason this is crazy is because people always want the world to end for a reason that is profoundly important and related to our fears. People want the world to end because they don't want to take responsibility for making the world better. And in all millenarian and chiliastic movements, the ideas of -- the ends of time movements -- all of them, there's really two different traditions -- one in which there's a date, and God is going to come on that date no matter what we do, and end the world, and raise the dead, and make sure you don't have to wait in line for movies.

And that is going to happen no matter what we do. But there's a second tradition that the end of time will come when we prepare the world for the end of time by constant vigilant acts of goodness and compassion and trying to truly end the problems of the world. The problem with apocalyptic thinking is that it leads people to give up, and the tradition in apocalyptic thinking that teaches us we can make a difference, that's the one that I love, and that's the one that matters.

ZAHN: Do you think this is getting lost in the fear that is being expressed to you by some of your parishioners? HARTMAN: I think so, but there are other models also. 9/11. So many of us were sad, we were skeptical, we're hurt, we're angry, and then very shortly after that, people like Father Michael Judge, the story of what he did, stories of courageous policemen and firemen and Rudy Giuliani and people pulling together.

That's really apocalyptic, as Marc said, in the truest sense of the word. That we realize that this is no lasting kingdom. That we realize there's a termination to our time here. And the question is, when I go to talk to God about what I did, what am going to say about my life? And the gospel, the Bible would say, make it good things. Feed the hungry. Visit the sick. Take care of those who are in need.

GELLMAN: You know, there's a legend in our tradition, which I love so much. It says that the end of time will come, and the Messiah will announce himself for the first time, or the second time. We don't -- that's not really important now. But...

HARTMAN: He's not too good at math.

GELLMAN: It doesn't matter, first or second time.

HARTMAN: It does matter.

GELLMAN: I understand it matters on a certain reading of history. But -- he will be a leper at the gates of Rome. And whoever bends down to say, "let me help you change your bandages," that is when he will announce that he is the Messiah. So, that image that he is the lowest of the low, the neediest of the needy, the one who sleeps in the dust, and whoever bends down to help him, they will be the one to bring the Messianic age. And that is why I gave to the guy outside...

ZAHN: You're still waiting, you are still waiting. He's not waiting.

HARTMAN: I'm waiting too.

GELLMAN: For the return.

ZAHN: For the return.

GELLMAN: The pyrocia (ph). And you know, there's really not that big a difference, if it is the first or the second time. People are going to be so thrilled that no one is really going to care that much.

ZAHN: You get the final word this morning.

HARTMAN: Well, I agree with Marc.

ZAHN: On what part?

HARTMAN: That's why I love him.

ZAHN: First time, second time? HARTMAN: At the end of time, even if the world were to end, the assurance that we have is God is saying over and over again, don't worry. Don't be afraid. I'll be with you. In the book of Isaiah, it says God is going to wipe away the tears and he is going to make right so many wrongs of life. When I go to visit somebody...

GELLMAN: Hallelujah. Hallelujah!

HARTMAN: He's getting it. I am telling you. He's very good.

GELLMAN: I just was moved. I was very moved, actually.

HARTMAN: But if you would read the book...

ZAHN: Read the book that he says there's no warranties. I don't think so. Well, it is fascinating to have both of you on, because we have gotten a lot of e-mails about this, and we've talked with a number of people about the prospect of this biblical prophecy coming to light.

HARTMAN: Well, the important thing is, the "God Squad" gives a warrantee to that. Today will not be the end of the world, but today will be the day in which God invites you to do something special.

ZAHN: That is a nice note to leave it on.

GELLMAN: He is so good.

ZAHN: You are not going to jab him on that, are you?

GELLMAN: No, that's the best move he has. I can't top it.

ZAHN: All right. Rabbi Marc Gellman, Monsignor Thomas Hartman. Great to see you two again.

HARTMAN: Great.

GELLMAN: Good to see you, Paula. God bless you.

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