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American Morning

Interview with Martin Indyk, Saban Center, Brookings Institute

Aired May 13, 2002 - 07:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: "Up Front" this morning, Yasser Arafat is on the move in the West Bank. The president of the Palestinian Authority leaves Ramallah to tour areas hit hard during Israel's military offensive. Arafat used a Jordanian military helicopter to visit the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, site of a 38-day-long standoff, as well as Jenin, the refugee camp that was the scene of some of the most fierce fighting during the Israeli campaign.

And in an exclusive interview with Wolf Blitzer, Arafat said he will accept an Israeli state.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YASSER ARAFAT, PRESIDENT, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY: Accepting two states beside each other.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR (on camera): One state, Palestine...

ARAFAT: And one Israeli state.

BLITZER: Will that Israeli state be a Jewish state?

ARAFAT: Not on (ph) and in our area, not to forget that a part of the Jews are Palestinians, and they are representing in our legislative council.

BLITZER: Because Israelis are afraid...

ARAFAT: You forgot that this is the Terrasanta.

BLITZER: The holy land.

ARAFAT: Yes. And we have Jews, we have Christians, we have Muslims.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: And now on to the big question this morning: Can there be peace without a Palestinian state? Complicating a rather complicated situation in the Middle East, Israel Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's own party, the Likud Party, opening defied him by voting against the creation of a Palestinian state. The party faithful openly jeered Mr. Sharon yesterday, when he told them that a decision now on the issue of Palestinian statehood would only harm his efforts to negotiate peace.

The man behind the confrontation with Mr. Sharon is former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who intends to challenge the prime minister for party leadership.

Joining us now from Washington is the former U.S. ambassador to Israel, Martin Indyk, who is currently director of the Saban Center at the Brookings Institution -- good morning, Martin -- good to see you again.

MARTIN INDYK, DIRECTOR, SABAN CENTER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTE: Good morning, Paula.

ZAHN: Let's start off by talking about the Palestinian negotiator, Saeb Erakat's, reaction to the vote yesterday in Israel. He called it a slap in the face to President Bush. Is it?

INDYK: Well, I think Saeb is just trying to score points there out of the situation. No doubt it certainly complicates a situation in which the president of the United States is on record as trying to promote a two-state solution, a Palestinian state living alongside a secure Israel. This move by the Central Committee indicates that Ariel Sharon has drawn opposition within his own party, within the policy making body of his own party to such a decision.

ZAHN: What impact does that have in the next several weeks on where any peace talks, of political talks might go?

INDYK: Well, I think in the short term, Ariel Sharon will not be willing to countenance, for example, a regional conference that has as its starting point a Palestinian state, and he will be able to point to this vote in the Likud as an indication of a way in which its hands are tied. He won't accept that.

But Ariel Sharon has already made clear to President Bush and in standing up to this vote last night, he also made clear that this is not a policy that he endorses. He fought against this vote, and he has made clear to the president that he is willing to countenance a Palestinian state as long as there is an end to terror.

ZAHN: Let's try to reconcile that with what the foreign minister, Shimon Peres, had to say right here on CNN on Saturday night, strikingly different from the Likud Party position -- let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHIMON PERES, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: Israel, in order to remain a Jewish and democratic state, we need that the Palestinians will be organized in a state of their own, for the simple reason that we don't want to dominate their lives. It doesn't go with our history. And also, in order to keep the demographic division, we have to have a geographic partition. We don't have a choice.

So I believe that the Palestinian state is inevitable, and to my taste, it should as soon as possible, the earlier the better. And when I think back on Oslo, I feel maybe we were mistaken by not offering straight ahead to the Palestinians an independent state of their own.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: That is the first time I can remember Shimon Peres saying that that forcefully. Help us understand the broader picture here at play, when you know that Bebe Netanyahu would love to be the next prime minister, and you have the foreign minister out there obviously on a different page.

INDYK: Well, the foreign minister is a member of the Labour Party, which is in the coalition government with Sharon, but it is in opposition to the Likud Party position. They have been longstanding rivals, the Likud and the Labour Party. And the Labour Party has as its official policy support for an independent Palestinian state.

One point that Shimon Peres made there about the inevitability of a Palestinian state, it's interesting because successive polls show that a strong majority of Israelis both believe that it's inevitable that a Palestinian state will be created alongside Israel, and a strong majority support them, support the idea of an independent Palestinian state.

And so what you have here is actually a move by Bebe Netanyahu to challenge Sharon at a very emotional time, when he can play on the damage done to the political psyche in Israel by the repeated terrorist attacks to in effect show Ariel Sharon that he has majority support, 60 percent to 40 percent, in the Likud Central Committee.

And if I can take a moment, Paula, just to explain why that's important is that there is no longer direct election for the prime minister. The candidate of the Likud Party will be decided by this Central Committee that voted last night, and what Bebe Netanyahu showed is that basically he's got a two-to-one majority, more or less, in that Central Committee.

So what he wants to do is to bring down the government, so that he can challenge Sharon, win in the Central Committee and become the party's candidate for election, and therefore, become prime minister. Ariel Sharon, therefore, is now very dependent on Shimon Peres to stay in the government with his Labour Party, so as to prevent that scenario from coming about.

So in an ironical twist, what Bebe Netanyahu has done now is to make Ariel Sharon more dependent on the Labour Party for his own survival.

ZAHN: And what did you make of Yasser Arafat telling Wolf Blitzer that Palestinians are ready to stand by and live next door to a Jewish state?

INDYK: Well, there is nothing new in that. The Palestinians have, for a long time, declared their support for a two-state solution. The problem is, number one, how is that state going to be borne with Palestinians now, a strong majority of them, supporting violence and terrorism to try to achieve that objective? And number two, what kind of a relationship will it have with the state of Israel?

And when Yasser Arafat in another part of that interview denied any knowledge of the Al Aqsa Brigades being responsible for the Netanyahu terrorist bombing, it raised very big questions, I think, in the minds of Israelis as to whether Yasser Arafat is sincere when he says he wants a Palestinian state to live alongside Israel, rather than to use it as a stepping stone to then go on to attack and even destroy the Jewish state.

So the declaration of acceptance of an Israeli state is not new. What I think Israelis would have been looking for in that particular interview was some indication of acceptance of responsibility and a real sincere commitment to fighting those who want to destroy the Jewish state, and I didn't hear that in Wolf's interview.

ZAHN: All right. Martin Indyk, former U.S. ambassador to Israel, now the director of the Saban Center -- thank you very much for your insights this morning -- appreciate it.

INDYK: Thank you, Paula.

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