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American Morning

Security Adviser Discusses Pre-9/11 Intelligence Mix-ups

Aired June 04, 2002 - 09:12   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: As we have been reporting, behind closed doors today on Capitol Hill, lawmakers will ask questions about intelligence lapses leading up to September 11. And last week, the FBI announced a major restructuring that includes a new focus on fighting terrorism.

Joining us now from Sacramento is the former head of the FBI's New York division, James Kallstrom, who now serves as security adviser to the New York governor.

Good to see you, thanks for getting up so early for us this morning, sir.

JAMES KALLSTROM, N.Y. STATE PUBLIC SECURITY ADVISER: Good morning, Paula.

ZAHN: First of all, your take on the latest reporting about the CIA knowing the identities of two al Qaeda members in Malaysia when they attended a meeting, actually tracking their movements to the United States, where they were able to very effectively blend into American life -- and the charge that the FBI wasn't alerted to their presence, at least until three weeks before September 11.

KALLSTROM: Well, you know, I guess I would remind everybody working to protect the American people that the enemy is terrorism and al Qaeda, and not each other. So I realize there's a need to look back and reflect on why these things happened and why we were not successful in stopping them, and that's an important review. But you know, we need to move ahead, and we need to do everything humanly possible to break down the bureaucratic barriers that stop us from taking the action we need to take.

ZAHN: But how do you break down these bureaucratic barriers when David Ensor was told by sources yesterday that, in fact, what the CIA said wasn't true, that the FBI was notified about Almihdhar, one of those September 11 hijackers, in January of 2001.

KALLSTROM: Right.

ZAHN: The system clearly is broken, isn't it?

KALLSTROM: Well, I think the system is broken, Paula. And I don't give any excuses for anybody, but I would just caution your viewers that there are literally hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pieces of information that go into these agencies every day. It's crystal clear in retrospect, you know, what that information was and, you know, why it should have caused people to action.

And also, I think we've created a very risk-adverse -- particularly the FBI -- agency over the last 20, 25 years, where the bureaucracy has been strengthened and the call to action of the young -- you know, agents in the field that want to do the right thing. And of course, there's a lot of people in Washington that want to do the right thing. We've created this bureaucracy, this very risk-adverse, zero-defects mentality.

We need to get away from that, and we need to empower people to do what's right to protect the American public.

ZAHN: "TIME" magazine this week actually quotes a member of the Attorney General's Office talking about how former field agents like you were very much hampered by the old rules, referring to the so- called blind Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, who was convicted in the 1993 World Trade Center bombings. The Justice Department source says, quote, "Here was a guy you knew had ties to a terrorist organization. You knew he was meeting with his followers in the mosque. The agents couldn't go in. They had to stop at the door because no crime had been committed yet."

How might some of your investigations have been different if you were given some of the same new latitude that FBI agents will be given under these reforms?

KALLSTROM: Well, you know, the guidelines, Paula: almost made it almost to the point where the crime had to take place before the investigations could start. Not quite, but most people don't rise above that type of bureaucratic stranglehold. And therefore, you're going to get a lot of the things like we're hearing now about getting information, not acting on it, not putting their names on a memo.

You know, this whole business of killing the messenger, and if something goes wrong, there goes my career, we have to get away from that. That was not the FBI I came in to 30 years ago. It's the exact opposite thing we need to do.

People on the other side of these issues have valid points. We can't have agents just running amuck, doing things that are invading people's privacy and the civil liberties of this country. But on the other hand, we're in a different era now. This is an era of extreme importance, extreme danger for the country. And the stranglehold of those prior attorney general guidelines was really over the top.

ZAHN: Sen. Gary Hart was on our show yesterday, suggesting that the cooperation between the CIA and FBI and Congress really isn't going to improve until what he calls the next attack.

And I wanted to put on the screen now some of the new guidelines that FBI Dir. Mueller announced. And I just wonder, from your perspective, how effective you think they'll be, how much safer you think Americans will be as a result of these new rules. KALLSTROM: Well, I think Bob Mueller is trying to do the right thing. I think what he's saying is correct. The proof will be in how it's carried out.

You know, and do we empower, do we get people with the right attitudes and leadership? You know, are we providing the leadership to the field agents -- the support, the tools to do their job?

You know, I've always seen tremendous cooperation in my years between the two agencies, the CIA and the FBI. It's the bureaucracy, the lack of analytical ability, the lack of translators, the lack of the ability to put it all together that's really been the thing that's been responsible for not carrying out, you know, the types of actions that the information should have us do.

ZAHN: James Kallstrom, we appreciate your candor this morning -- the former FBI director of the New York field office, now in charge of public security as an adviser to New York Gov. Pataki. And thanks for taking our early morning wake-up call on the West Coast. We appreciate it very much.

KALLSTROM: Thank you, Paula. Always a pleasure.

ZAHN: Thank you.

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