Return to Transcripts main page

American Morning

Sen. Patrick Leahy Discusses FBI Whistle-blower Hearings

Aired June 06, 2002 - 08:11   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: On to Capitol Hill now, where FBI whistle-blower Coleen Rowley will be a star witness today during a hearing on the FBI's handling of intelligence information. FBI Director Robert Mueller will testify about the bureau's performance and reorganization before Rowley faces the Senate Judiciary Committee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R-IA), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: She's got the courage of a whistle-blower. She's a patriotic American. She wants the FBI to succeed. I want the FBI to succeed. But without reforms, we don't have an agency in the forefront of the war on terrorism that can win it if the FBI can't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Joining us now from Capitol Hill on a very busy day, indeed, Sen. Patrick Leahy, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Welcome to AMERICAN MORNING. Haven't seen you in a while.

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D-VT), JUDICIARY CHAIRMAN: Good morning.

ZAHN: Good to see you again, sir.

LEAHY: Good to see you.

ZAHN: So, Sen. Leahy, your colleague, Sen. Grassley, had some tough things to say about the FBI. But he really encouraged Coleen Rowley to bear it all today. His quote is "What she knows about middle management at headquarters -- stonewalling, the people who stonewalled -- their heads should roll."

Do you anticipate that you're going to get that kind of information out of her today?

LEAHY: I think we are and I was listening to what Chuck Grassley said at the opening part of this segment. I couldn't agree with him more. And Sen. Grassley and I have tried to make sure this is done in a totally bipartisan -- actually, a nonpartisan fashion.

We both notified Attorney General Ashcroft and Director Mueller that we will watch Ms. Rowley's career. We'll make sure that anybody, whether it's in Attorney General Ashcroft's office or in the FBI that comes forward with this kind of information, that they're not punished for doing it.

We know that there are some very serious problems in handling this material in the Department of Justice and the FBI. We're not out to try to hang people on the wall. What we want to do is correct them. We all know that we face further terrorist attacks. We want to make sure that we're in a position to stop the attacks before they happen. That's the only way you save lives. It's not trying to put the pieces together after the attack; it's stopping the attacks before they happen.

ZAHN: I know you say you don't want to hang people on the wall, and you're confident Coleen Rowley might tell you about who some of those middle management people were who dropped the ball. Once you have those names, what are you going to do with those folks?

LEAHY: Well, that's going to be up to the attorney general and Director Mueller of what they do. We want to make sure that we point out that if there are problems, whether it's personnel problems or systems problems that stopped information from going forward, that they be corrected. Sen. Specter said yesterday this wasn't connecting the dots; this was not reading the road map, to paraphrase what he said.

When we first started asking questions about this in January and February, the administration said Oh, don't ask any questions, you know, we're at war. Well, we're all in this together. We people don't get attacked by whether they are Republicans or Democrats; Americans have been attacked, and we should ask the questions, because obviously some very, very serious mistakes were made. We want them corrected before we get hit again.

ZAHN: Although FBI director, we should point out, Mueller didn't take his job until about a week before September 11.

LEAHY: No, in fact...

ZAHN: There are folks out there who don't think he's fit to lead based on some of the comments he made post-September 11 about the administration or not being aware of some of these missed signals, and then later conceding that with some luck the possibility existed that some of these dots could have been connected to prevent September 11.

Is he fit to serve?

LEAHY: You know, it's very -- oh, of course he's fit to serve. He's an excellent director of the FBI. It's a very interesting bit of scapegoating. All the people who were here well before September 11 -- not all the people, but a number of them -- are calling the press just for background, we've got to tell you what's wrong with Bob Mueller. Bob Mueller barely got into his office when September 11 happened, and I think what you have is an awful lot of people who are trying to use him as a scapegoat because they don't want anybody to look at the mistakes they made, whether it's the Department of Justice or anywhere else. I think that's a mistake. It shouldn't be a case of trying to make scapegoats of people. This is a case of trying to protect America, and if mistakes were made, let's be honest enough to admit them, but then take the steps necessary to protect all Americans, not to protect one individual's career here or there.

And Director Mueller is doing a good job. He has the confidence of both the House and Senate Judiciary Committee, and it will continue.

ZAHN: Sen. Gary Hart was a guest on our show not long ago, and he essentially said because of the lack of accountability that members of Congress are showing, and the head of the FBI and the CIA, it is his fear it is not until another attack is unleashed on the United States that any of this stuff is going to really work the way it should work. Are you that pessimistic?

LEAHY: Well, you know, I have a great deal of admiration for Sen. Hart. We came here to the Senate together. He's probably spent more time worrying about these things and looking at these things, he and Sen. Rudman, than just about anybody I know. I think that we know that there were decades that there wasn't any real oversight at the FBI. When I became chairman, I started the first major oversight hearings there had been in 15 or 20 years.

We've got to do that constantly. That's why Vice President Cheney was absolutely wrong to say, Well, nobody should ask questions. Well, of course we have to ask questions. That's why both Republicans and Democrats are asking questions. Maybe it's a little bit late, but it's better now than not doing it at all.

ZAHN: A final question for you. We -- not that we want to tip off Coleen Rowley at this hour, but what's the first question you're going to ask her later today?

LEAHY: Well, we're going to ask her just the questions basically what happened -- what did you see, who did you report it to and where were you stonewalled?

ZAHN: And when you get to the...

LEAHY: I think she's a very courageous -- I think she's a very courageous person. You know, the thing with the FBI sometimes is keep your head down, don't rock the boat, don't ask questions or, boy, your career could be stymied. I mean this goes back to the old J. Edgar Hoover days straight forward till the last few months.

Well, you can't do it that way. This is not a case where you, we have so many extremely good men and women in the FBI. They shouldn't have to be thinking you should only protect your career. They're there to protect Americans, and that should be first and foremost.

ZAHN: Sen. Patrick Leahy, again, thank you for joining us on such a busy day.

LEAHY: Thank you. ZAHN: Our eyes will be on you later this morning.

LEAHY: Good talking with you, Paula.

ZAHN: Good luck.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com