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American Morning

Interview with Frank Rubino, Jack LoCicero

Aired June 14, 2002 - 07:04   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: A federal judge has ruled that Zacarias Moussaoui, the alleged 20th hijacker, can represent himself in court. Judge Leonie Brinkema says Moussaoui is mentally competent to defend himself, even though she thinks it's unwise. Moussaoui's court- appointed lawyers say his decision will turn the trial into a circus.

Joining us now to offer a legal perspective, criminal defense attorney, Frank Rubino, and for -- and please, join us, Mr. LoCicero. We are joined by another gentleman here, Jack LoCicero. For him, this brings back very grim memories. His daughter, Amy, was one of six people killed when Colin Ferguson went on a murderous rampage on New York's Long Island Railroad. Ferguson also acted as his own attorney -- welcome to both of you -- thank you both for joining us this morning.

So, Frank, what do you think of the judge's decision?

FRANK RUBINO, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think the judge was kind of forced into it and had no choice but to allow Moussaoui to represent himself, in spite of the bad consequences that will come out of it.

ZAHN: Now, what are the bad consequences as you see them?

RUBINO: Well, I see the bad consequences as the trial now not being a real legitimate trial, but Moussaoui probably getting up and not pleading his case, but pleading his cause. And that's not the purpose of a trial. The purpose of a trial is to get to the truth of what really happened, not to give someone like Moussaoui a forum to stand up and express his political views, and I'm afraid that's what may happen.

ZAHN: (AUDIO GAP) choice when this guy refused to use his court- appointed attorneys? I guess he is still holding out hope that there is another attorney, who he will not identify, might join him at some point in this trial.

RUBINO: Well, clearly, he needs guidance. I mean, this is kind of like doing self-surgery. Though he may be competent, is he competent to conduct a meaningful trial?

ZAHN: We are going to bring Mr. LoCicero into the discussion now. Frank Rubino basically saying his concern is that this guy is not going to plead his case. He is going to plead his cause. Was that your fear in your own personal case that you went through?

JACK LOCICERO, FATHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM: Yes, we thought he was going to use it as a forum to vent whatever anger he had against the community. We were concerned that this might be a basis upon which he would cause a mistrial, and later on, we would have to go through the proceedings once again.

It was kind of weird to watch him speak and speak in the third person, acting as his own attorney. And that the old song (ph) came to mind, you know, one who defends himself has a fool for a client. And every day was a new happening in the existence of our going through the court proceedings.

We were fearful that he was going to again create a problem facing his victims once again. But after the first day, basically when Mary Anne, who was the first one who was shot on the train, came back after testifying, she said, "You know, I didn't have to fear him anymore. He didn't have a gun." And then that set the tone for the rest of the people who had to face him once again.

ZAHN: And while these cases are not at all similar, the only thing that might happen that would have a commonality with your case is that some of the victims of September 11 may be sitting in that courtroom.

LOCICERO: Yes.

ZAHN: What will it be like, do you think, based on your own personal experience for them to sit in the courtroom and hear Moussaoui defend himself?

LOCICERO: My wife was somewhat fearful when we first heard that he was going to defend himself, and we were seated in the court. And as he was brought in the first day in shackles and in a bullet-proof vest, and one of the concerns we had, at least my wife did, was seeing the pictures of Colin Ferguson. He seemed like a big man, and my daughter was 5 foot nothing. And the vision that she saw was a big man approaching him -- her, rather, and imitating -- or intimidating them.

But as the day wore on, he seemed to be slinking lower and lower in the seat. So I think it was a catharsis in the sense that we could see that this was just an individual, and he was a sad case in many ways.

ZAHN: Frank, do you think it will be insulting for family members, who were victimized by September 11, to sit in that courtroom and hear Moussaoui defend himself?

RUBINO: Absolutely, because I still say, I don't believe Moussaoui is going to defend himself. I think he is going to plead his cause. And I think the American people are also entitled to a fair trial. It isn't just a defendant that's entitled to a fair trial, but the American people are entitled to one. And I don't think the American people are going to get what a trial really should be, which is this search for the truth, if he defends himself. ZAHN: What is the challenge the judge will have in trying to ensure that this guy gets a fair trial, and at the same time, try to ensure that this thing just doesn't turn into a complete circus?

RUBINO: She is going to have a hard time, as any judge would have a hard time, keeping him on the straight and narrow, keeping him on the path, and keeping him within the rules of the way we conduct a trial. He will just wander off, in my opinion, in every different direction, probably every direction but the correct one.

ZAHN: Now, this guy is not going to have access to classified information, right?

RUBINO: He is not and obviously should not.

ZAHN: And if he had gotten or decided to use his court-appointed attorneys, might he have had access to that kind of information?

RUBINO: He may have had access. He is not immediately entitled to access to classified documents. The defense has to show that they are relevant material and necessary to their projected defense. Otherwise, they are not entitled to them.

ZAHN: What did you make of what you heard him say in the courtroom? It has been widely reported he speaks English beautifully. He seems to have a modicum of understanding about our court system. How is he likely to perform?

RUBINO: Again, I don't think that he is going to put on what I consider to be a legitimate defense. I must concede yesterday was the first time I heard him say anything that led you to believe that he is claiming he is not guilty of the specific charge. Up until yesterday, if you remember, he was saying disparaging and terrible things about our country. Finally yesterday, he did make the statement that he was not associated with the other hijackers. That may be a glimpse into where he is coming from for his defense.

ZAHN: If that is a glimpse, provide us with what you think would be a broader knowledge of how this guy might represent himself? What would be his basis for his innocence here?

RUBINO: Well, the question is: Does he intend to try to convince 12 people called the jury that he actually was not the 20th hijacker? Or does he intend to go into some political rhetoric to tell them why he had a right to be the 20th hijacker? That may be the terror or the horrible thing that may occur in this trial, which is not a valid, legitimate defense.

ZAHN: Frank Rubino, always good to see you -- thanks for joining us with your insights on the case.

RUBINO: Thank you.

ZAHN: And Mr. LoCicero, appreciate your giving us a more personal view of what it might be like for a family member to be subjected to a defendant defending himself and not through a court- appointed attorney.

LOCICERO: Thank you.

ZAHN: Appreciate your dropping by.

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