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American Morning
Sound Off: Will Barrier Itself Prove Another Obstacle in Peace Process?
Aired June 18, 2002 - 09:20 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We have been reporting all morning long about the deadly suicide bombing in Jerusalem that killed at least 19 people. Appearing on our program earlier today, Jerusalem Mayor, Ehud Ohlmert, saying that the bombing points out the need for the security fence, which Israel started building over the weekend. But will that barrier itself prove to be another obstacle in the peace process?
Joining us from Washington for today's "Sound Off," Democratic Strategist Bob Beckel and former RNC Communication Director, Cliff May -- gentlemen, good morning. A pleasure to have you with us.
BOB BECKEL, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Good morning, Daryn.
CLIFF MAY, FMR. RNC COMM. DIRECTOR: Good morning.
KAGAN: Good morning.
Bob, we're going to start with you. Nineteen people dead today in Jerusalem. Public opinion very strong for this barrier. How can you argue against that and people's need for a sense of security?
BECKEL: Well, if it gave a sense of security, if it didn't, in fact, provide security, it would be fine. But it doesn't. These ideas of building fences is not new. You know it goes back to the Great Wall of China. It didn't work then and it won't work now.
We've tried to do this in Texas on the border with Mexico. It hasn't worked. So my point about this is that it's not going to do something like stop this bombing this morning. If somebody wants to get through a fence and do a bombing, they are going to do. What it is going to do is make the peace process that much more difficult to achieve.
I think it's a mistake, it's not going to work, and it's going to give them a false sense of security. And now we have to listen to Cliff mimic the line.
KAGAN: Yeah, I just want to say, Bob, points to you. I know you have a bad throat today, and points for you for kind of pushing through and getting those opinions.
Cliff, the people in Jerusalem -- the officials in Jerusalem knew this was coming. They had warning 24-hour alert that city was under, and yet they couldn't stop it. Why would a fence stop an attack like this?
MAY: Because right now what you, Daryn, is you have very, very porous borders between Israel and the territories, where you have people who want to slaughter Jews, Jewish children, Israeli children, as many as possible. A fence can be part of the solution, not all of the solution.
Look, right now there is a fence like the one we're talking about around the Gaza strip. Even though Hamas is very active in that area, Hamas leaders have villas on the waterfront. And, by the way, Arafat does nothing about it.
You haven't had much in the way of terrorism coming out of Gaza because they prevent it. It would be nice if we could have open borders and porous boarders, but you can't.
The other thing that's important to recognize is whatever Israel does, if it sets up checkpoints to look for terrorists, if it puts up a fence, if it goes after the terrorists themselves, Israel gets roundly criticized. It seems the only thing the Israelis are allowed to do in response to terrorism is make concessions and die, and that just can't be.
KAGAN: But Cliff, let me just point out that some of that criticism is coming from right within Israel -- oops, did we just lose cliff.
MAY: I don't think so.
(CROSSTALK)
BECKEL: What a terrible shame...
MAY: Bob pushed me off my chair.
KAGAN: I think that was Bob pulling the plug in there in the video there for just a second.
MAY: Yeah, Bob does that.
KAGAN: I just want to point out that some of that criticism comes right from the conservative part of the Israeli population. Some 200,000 settlers say you put up that fence and you are cutting us off. They don't want it up.
MAY: Israel is a democratic country and there is always debate about these things. And you're exactly right. There are various Jewish communities, in Judean Samari (ph) and the West Bank, and they don't want to be cut off by the fence. They're afraid they won't be protected.
This is debate for the Israelis to have. I'm not supporting or attacking the fence, I'm saying I understand if Israelis believe that they need a fence to keep their borders from being porous so that terrorists who only want to slaughter Israeli children can't get through as easily as they are now, Daryn. KAGAN: What about the 25 Palestinians that say that that's going to cut them off from just trying to get into Israel just to earn an honest day's living?
MAY: You know what, it's going to be very hard, there's no question about it, for Palestinians to come to Israel to work, just as Israelis can't go to the territories to shop or do what they want to do. If we were having terrorism coming across the border from Mexico, believe me, we would keep Mexicans from coming across the border to shop and work and do other things.
When, and if, these two peoples are at peace, then people can cross the border easily. Until then, I think there will have to be some separation. Otherwise, Israeli children will die on mass -- mass murdered as they were once again today. The Israelis have to do something to protect themselves. And if that means some people can't take jobs in restaurants in Israel, I think that's a price that has to be paid.
KAGAN: Gentlemen, let's move on to a topic that President Bush would rather have people focus on, and that is the situation in Iraq and what to do about Saddam Hussein. We come to find out that earlier this year the president signed an executive order basically telling the CIA, whatever you have to do, take out Saddam Hussein.
Good idea, Bob, or not?
BECKEL: Well, first of all, I couldn't let that go by. Cliff, that was a Bill Clinton answer that you gave, that last three minutes of spin that you had.
MAY: High praise indeed from you, Bob.
BECKEL: Now I wanted to insult you. It was important to do that. God, you didn't -- well, anyway, about -- I mean, look, if there's something that can be done to get rid of Saddam Hussein, fine, I guess.
But the problem is that the CIA was after Fidel Castro for 20 years and didn't pull it off. And the idea that we'd allow the CIA to go out and do these kinds of things, unless we're fairly certain of the outcome, we've had a history with them not being very successful at it. All it will do if they miss is going to inflame tensions even more.
KAGAN: Cliff, let me add in there that even George Tenet said if you just leave it to the CIA, perhaps the success rate of maybe 10 percent. Plus, you have to keep in mind there's no one to take his place -- Saddam Hussein's place.
MAY: Right. I don't think we need to worry about somebody taking his place. Something will happen. After Sadat was assassinated, somebody took his place. After the Taliban was crushed in Afghanistan, somebody came up to take his place. You couldn't say it was before. There will be somebody. I think you have to have faith that among the Iraqi people there is somebody there who can lead that country and probably lead it back to a democratic state, which we would like to see in the Arab world.
I think that what Bush is saying is that we're going to use whatever method works best to secure regime change, because right now what we have there is Saddam Hussein, who has vowed revenge on the United States, and who is sponsoring terrorism and developing weapons of mass destruction -- whatever means he will use.
KAGAN: It will be very interesting to see a response from this region, where leaders have made it very clear that they are not interested in the United States coming in and butting in that business.
Bob Beckel, Cliff May, thanks for joining us.
BECKEL: Thank you, Daryn.
MAY: Thank you.
KAGAN: And Bob, thanks so much. Good luck with the voice. Appreciate it.
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