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American Morning

Interview with Bob Beckel, Cliff May

Aired June 25, 2002 - 08:18   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: After weeks of waiting, President Bush has offered his blueprint for peace in the Mideast. He did not mention him by name, but the president's plan hinges on the removal of a key Palestinian player.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Peace requires a new and different Palestinian leadership so that a Palestinian state can be born. I call on the Palestinian people to elect new leaders, leaders not compromised by terror. I call upon them to build a practicing democracy based on tolerance and liberty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: And so the president is suggesting that statehood is now tied to replacing Yasser Arafat. The question is will the Palestinian leader step aside or will there be even more bloodshed?

Joining us now from Washington for today's sound off, Democratic strategist Bob Beckel. Hopefully his voice is back in fighting form. And former RNC Communications Director Cliff May.

Gentlemen, good morning. Thanks for being with us.

CLIFF MAY, FORMER RNC COMMITTEE DIRECTOR: Good morning, Daryn.

BOB BECKEL, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Good morning, Daryn.

KAGAN: Cliff, let's start with you. What is the possible incentive for Yasser Arafat to agree and to go along with this plan to remove himself from leadership and to comply?

MAY: Yes, it's really not up to Yasser Arafat. He is history is what Bush told him. It is up to others in the Palestinian leadership and it is up to the Palestinian people to demand better leaders, leaders who are not corrupt, leaders who do not support, encourage, plan and underwrite terrorism, leaders who are willing to build a democratic society, a free society which would be the first democratic and free society in the Arab world and would be a close American ally.

They have to do that if they want Bush's support and America's support for a Palestinian state that would live side by side with Israel, not one that would seek to replace Israel. This was a radical speech and it was a very important speech and I think it changes the entire framework for the peace process going forward.

KAGAN: Hey, Cliff, you want to hear radical? What till you hear what Bob has to say. He says, all right, get rid of Yasser Arafat, but you know who else has to go? Ariel Sharon. Bob?

BECKEL: Thanks, Daryn, for doing that for me. Actually, the worst nightmare has happened for Cliff, I got my voice back.

KAGAN: Oh-oh.

MAY: I'm in trouble now. I'm in trouble now.

BECKEL: Now it's not only a fair fight, it's a slaughter now. But, first of all, you know, when Cliff says this is a breakthrough speech and this is such a radical change in what's going on, the fact that the Israelis and the Palestinians today both endorsed the speech tells you how uncertain and unfocused the whole thing was.

The question about Arafat, now, Cliff, you think it's not Arafat's choice whether he leaves or not? Who are you kidding? There's only one way he's going to leave, feet first. Which means who's going to get him out of there? That means the Israelis have to go in and do it. They're going to have to exile him. And that is going to be a very, very dicey situation.

Having said that, I think it's a good idea now that Arafat go. I think, I congratulate Bush on that. But as Daryn said, it's also time, when President Bush says get rid of people who had a terrorist background, it's time for Ariel Sharon to go, as well. Let's start all over.

If we're going to start fresh, get rid of both of these guys.

MAY: The difference, as you know, is...

KAGAN: Bob, you're on some very dicey ground there. Back up why you think Ariel Sharon has to go, as well.

BECKEL: Because Ariel Sharon has been fighting Yasser Arafat for 40 years. He himself has been a combatant. He is hooked to the past. He is a guy who has -- who has had a long history of controversy within the Palestinian and the Arab world.

I think if you're going to bring the other Arab states to the table here, you're going to simply have to have somebody besides Ariel Sharon on the other side of the table.

MAY: I don't necessarily, I don't agree with what you're saying about Sharon. But here's the important part. You know and I know, and I hope we can all agree, that Sharon is there because Israel is a vibrant democracy and he was elected. And there are a lot of Israelis who would like to see Sharon go. One of them is Bebe Netanyahu, one of them is Ehud Barak. It's a democracy.

We don't have a democracy or even the beginning of a democratic structure in the Palestinian entity. That needs to happen. Look, what Bush did that was really radical was he did not buy into the usual Western prejudice that says that Palestinians and Arabs are incapable of rejecting terrorism, are incapable of embracing democracy. He said they have to move -- why would the U.S. want to sponsor the creation of a new state anywhere in the world if it's going to be a dictatorship allied with Iraq and Iran and another sponsor of terrorism?

We don't want to do that. It wouldn't be in our national interest. Bush made that clear. You want to have a new Palestinian state. Fine. He said I'll back it, but it's got to be an American ally, democratic, and not terrorist sponsoring, an ally in the war against terrorism, like Israel is.

BECKEL: Yes, you know...

KAGAN: All right, Cliff, let me ask you this about democracy. Let's say these elections come around and they come around in the springtime and the Palestinian people vote and they pick Yasser Arafat, if they reelect him. Has President Bush painted himself into a corner if, indeed, that happens?

MAY: No. If that happens, then you're right, that is a possibility. It would be a bad choice on the part of the Palestinians because they are picking somebody who is, as Bush said, compromised by terrorism, somebody with whom the Israelis won't negotiate. They are, in a sense, if they elect Arafat, saying we want the status quo, we want to continue our fight with Israel. And I think that would be a very bad choice because of the two, who is going to come out worse if they continue in a state of war with Israel?

Israel has -- I believe, has shown great restraint in this war. They'll show less restraint if you have Arafat continuing to encourage and underwrite terrorism. So that's, but that is a decision for the Palestinians to make, if they can get free and fair elections. I don't believe they have ever had free and fair elections in a Palestinian entity.

BECKEL: And they're not, and with Arafat there, they're not going to have free and fair elections. I mean, listen, Cliff, you can talk all you want...

MAY: That's a good point. I agree with you on that.

BECKEL: I mean, you know, Bush gives this nice speech, he says we'll all be democratic, let's have elections. Who are we kidding? That's like saying to the Munchkins, let's have an election on whether, you know, the wizard stays in Oz. I mean, the fact of the matter is you still, you can say all the things you want. This was an unfocused speech. I don't know what anybody thinks it's supposed to do today or tomorrow. It is contingent upon Arafat leaving.

But Daryn makes a very good point, what if they elect, reelect Arafat? Are you going to say, well, OK, we still, he's still got to go? No.

(CROSSTALK)

KAGAN: In our last minute I want to put this out there...

BECKEL: ... has got to be exiled earlier.

KAGAN: I want to put this out there in this last minute. President Bush was very specific about demands for the Palestinians. He was rather vague on the rewards, on when they come and what they will be.

Cliff, did he need to be more specific to encourage the Palestinian people to follow his demands?

MAY: No. He said you'll have a state in three years if you do what I'm asking you to do -- reject terrorism, embrace democracy, get rid of the corruption and then I'm going to support you. You could have a state within three years. He was very clear, but there are some hurdles they're going to have to get over in order to get -- if what they want is a Palestinian state that will live side by side with Israel as opposed to what Hamas wants, what Islamic Jihad wants, what I think Arafat wants, which is to replace Israel, wipe it off the map.

Don't forget, Arafat's map still doesn't show Israel. I don't believe he wants to be the prime minister of a Palestinian state. I think he wants to be the conqueror of Jerusalem, which is why I think Bush is saying Arafat's got to go if we're going to make progress here.

KAGAN: Bob, real quick?

BECKEL: Yes, I mean it's a lot of talk. It's like the good fairy is going to visit Cliff, which I hope happens, Cliff being a Democrat. But the point is that all this is nice to say. It's been said before. Somebody's got to make it happen. It's got to be more specific and I think what President Bush did was put out a very good story that both sides can spin and the fact is nothing's changed in the Middle East today, tomorrow, nor will it in 18 months, unless we get more specific.

KAGAN: All right. We will be watching.

Bob, good to see that the good voice...

BECKEL: And it's nice to have my voice back.

KAGAN: Yes, the good voice fairy did visit you. Congratulations on that.

BECKEL: Thank you.

KAGAN: Good to have you back in full form.

Cliff May, thank you as much, as well.

MAY: Thank you.

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