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American Morning

Discussion of Morning's John Walker Lindh Hearing

Aired July 15, 2002 - 08:08   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: For more now on this morning's high stakes hearing to determine if the words of American-born Taliban suspect John Walker Lindh can be used against him at trial, a federal judge in Virginia will have the final word.

Joining us to talk about the Walker Lindh case, CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. Good morning.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.

ZAHN: So what are the chances that a judge will allow for the statements to be suppressed?

TOOBIN: I think it's a small chance. It ...

ZAHN: Tell me why.

TOOBIN: ... What's interesting about this case is that -- you know, the law is supposed to apply equally to everyone, no matter what the circumstances are.

ZAHN: Will it in this case?

TOOBIN: Well, but this case is so different, I mean, because of the stakes are so high, the crime is so serious, and John Walker Lindh, frankly, is such a hated person in America. He was held for 55 days. He was, apparently, given his Miranda warnings, and he did sign a waiver. But it was done under conditions that were really pretty extraordinary. You know, he was shot; he was injured; he was sick. He was in, you know, in terrible pain. And he did give these statements, ultimately. And it's also important to remember, if these statements were to get thrown out, the whole case would fall apart. So what he needs -- the judge in the case is going to have to say, am I going to throw this case out? And I just don't believe the judge is. I think -- I think he's going to find a way to keep the case.

ZAHN: So, you're saying, when John Walker Lindh signed this waiver - and I know, obviously, you weren't with him when he signed it -- he didn't know what the heck he was doing?

TOOBIN: Well, that's the argument of the defense attorneys, and, you know, just because you have a signed waiver, doesn't, automatically, mean that's the end of the court's investigation. But, here, you do -- you have a sense of pretty extraordinary conditions this guy was under. I mean, we've all seen him strapped to the stretcher. But courts, especially in this courthouse, the Eastern District of Virginia, -- it's known as the rocket docket, it's known - it's a very pro-government courthouse. I don't see any way that they're going to throw these statements out.

ZAHN: And you just said that if they don't allow for these statements to be used, the prosecution has no case.

TOOBIN: See, that's why it's so -- if this were just one piece of evidence among many, then maybe the -- you wouldn't have to be so cynical about how this case is going to come out. But, here, this is the government's whole case, these statements. If they come out, they're going to have to dismiss the case. It's just not going to happen.

ZAHN: In your judgment, what is the single most indicting thing John Walker Lindh had to say in these statements?

TOOBIN: That he met with Osama Bin Laden and he stayed with the Taliban after meeting with Osama Bin Laden. I mean, imagine, in this country at this moment, saying you met with Osama Bin Laden, you know, a man who's done more damage to the United States than probably anyone since World War II. That, I think, once the jury hears that, end of story.

ZAHN: So what does the defense plan to do about that? What is their strategy? (UNINTELLIGIBLE) if they can't get the stuff thrown out, then what?

TOOBIN: I think, look for a plea bargain. I think the government, in the course of this case -- one thing the judge has said is that the defense will probably have the right to go to Guantanamo Bay, interview other prisoners.

There will be all sorts of controversy in this trial over use of classified information, how much the defense can get. I mean, the government will, probably, win this trial.

But it would be a very difficult process. There will be some incentive for the government to sort of get rid of it with a long sentence, but not a life sentence. I mean, that's what the defense attorneys have to be thinking about. This is a young man. If he got 20 or 30 years, he could have some life ahead of him. And that's what -- I think they've got to be thinking about if they lose this (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

ZAHN: What are they likely to learn from these prisoners at Guantanamo that will buttress their case?

TOOBIN: Well, they will learn about whether these -- what kind of conditions Walker Lindh was held in, in an effort to show that what he said was not reliable. Also, very interesting point here, is that the FBI never tape recorded or videoed Walker Lindh's statements, which is a pretty bizarre practice for the FBI ...

ZAHN: But normal procedure is. TOOBIN: Well, actually, it's not ...

ZAHN: It's not?

TOOBIN: ... in the FBI. One of the strange things about the FBI - I've written about this, in the past - is they like their agents to testify and say, this is what the -- this is what the suspect said. Most police departments now do tape record. But the FBI likes it all to be in their agent's words. And it's -- I think it's a pretty suspicious practice, frankly. But, again, a plea bargain would avoid all that.

ZAHN: Well, you'll be along for the ride with us. Jeffrey Toobin, thanks you for your insight, as always.

TOOBIN: OK.

ZAHN: Good to see you. Bill?

HEMMER: All right, Paula.

In a moment here on "American Morning," can a reporter be a threat to national security? Why did the government question a reporter last week? The journalist will be here to talk about that and tell us his story as to what happened, shortly here on "American Morning."

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