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American Morning

Dramatic Turn Yesterday in Court in Zacarias Moussaoui Case

Aired July 19, 2002 - 08:06   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It is going to be a week now before we know if a federal judge is going to allow Zacarias Moussaoui to plead guilty in that bizarre case, another dramatic turn yesterday in court.

Deborah Feyerick inside that courtroom, and she witnessed the stunning events. Live in Washington now with more on this -- hey, Deborah, good morning.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, there, Bill.

Well, Moussaoui appeared a lot more agitated than he has in the past. He launched into a tirade against the judge, accusing her of denying him justice. He's also saying that the lawyers she had appointed him were trying to undermine him. He told her to "stop the nonsense game" those were his words -- that he believes she's playing against him.

That pretty much set the tone for the rest of the hearing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK (voice-over): Frustrated by what he called "farcical justice," Zacarias Moussaoui told a packed courtroom, "I am guilty," a plea he said he wanted to enter to save himself from the death penalty.

Ignoring the judge's attempts to cut him off, Moussaoui admitted being part of al Qaeda and swearing a loyalty oath to Osama bin Laden. Moussaoui has denied taking part in the September 11 attacks, but acknowledged, "I know exactly who done it. I know which group, I know who participated and when it was decided."

DICK SAUBER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It seems to me that if, in fact, he was a member of al Qaeda and was involved even peripherally in any of the planning or preparation for September 11, his information could be invaluable.

FEYERICK: Moussaoui told the judge he had been part of an ongoing conspiracy since 1995 and that he had information for the American people. The judge advised him to take it up with prosecutors, possibly as part of a plea deal. To date, the government has offered no such deal.

After his guilty plea, Moussaoui asked the judge for a trial as soon as possible so a jury could determine the extent of his guilt. Judge Leonie Brinkema warned Moussaoui he could not pick and choose what he would plead guilty to, saying it would have to be to all the government's charges. They include terrorism, conspiracy and conspiracy to murder U.S. nationals. Moussaoui is acting as his own lawyer. One of his stand by attorneys tells CNN, "If you went over the indictment with him line by line, I don't believe he'd agree to all of the charges."

This is the third time Moussaoui has been arraigned. The first time, he refused to enter a plea. The second time, he pleaded no contest. And now the attempted guilty plea. The judge told Moussaoui she'd give him a week to think about it.

MARK HULKOWER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: She wanted to make sure that this wasn't just another lurch, just another sudden shift, because once you enter a plea in federal court, the chances of withdrawing it are very slim.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK: If Moussaoui still wants to plead guilty next week, then the judge is going to read all the charges in the indictment. Moussaoui will have to plead guilty to all the counts unless he's cut some sort of a deal. It gets tricky when it comes to the aggravating factors. That's what the government has put forward as the reason Moussaoui should get the death penalty. And even his own lawyers don't know what's going to come of that.

It's unclear how the judge is actually going to handle that part of the indictment, which is exactly why we were in court yesterday -- Bill.

HEMMER: Going to be high drama next week.

Deborah, thanks.

Deborah Feyerick in Washington.

More now from Jeffrey Toobin, our legal analyst, with us this morning.

Good morning to you.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.

HEMMER: Correct my Legal 101 here. Guy stands up in court and says, "I did it, I'm your guy," case is over, right? Zacarias Moussaoui stands up yesterday in court and says, "I'm a member of al Qaeda, I'm a follower of bin Laden." Why is this case not in the bank right now?

TOOBIN: You know, the legal system is frequently irrational. But I have to say yesterday was not irrational. The judge did exactly the right thing. The reason is he has been representing himself. He has not received any legal advice. He, in order to accept a guilty plea, a judge has to be satisfied that it is a knowing plea, that the person understands the implications of what he's doing and that he is, in fact, admitting to what he's charged with. You can't just say well, I want to get rid of the case, I'm not pleading guilty to what specifically I'm charged with, but I'm guilty so let's move on.

No. He has to admit every single act that he's charged with and he has to do it understanding the implications. It's not clear that he's mentally capable of doing that.

HEMMER: Knowing that this is on the record right now, that must be an extremely difficult hurdle to overcome if, indeed, we go in a different direction next week.

TOOBIN: That's why this case has got to end ultimately in a guilty plea, because what he said in court, there was a court reporter taking down every word, that could be admitted as evidence against him should this case go to trial. So I think it is just a matter or organizing the processes to get a guilty plea accepted. But that is admissible evidence, of what he said. So it's going to be -- it's...

HEMMER: So here's what I want to know, then, Jeffrey. He's already had one mental evaluation.

TOOBIN: Right.

HEMMER: The judge in this case obviously has put things aside, get your thoughts together, get your mind together, let me figure out the direction I need to go right now, because frankly she was thrown a curve ball yesterday, right?

TOOBIN: Right. Oh, everyone was.

HEMMER: So if that's the case, then, do you go back and then reevaluate his mental state?

TOOBIN: You try. He didn't really cooperate with the first psychiatric evaluation and you can't compel someone to participate in that sort of thing. But, you know, she is going to walk him through. You know, if you've never seen a guilty plea in court, it's, they take a long time, even with normal defendants. It's about a 45 minute process because they explain all the implications.

If this guilty plea goes forward, you can be sure that the judge will probably spend an hour, hour and a half going over exactly what the plea is and that's probably what will happen.

The interesting question then is what about penalty, because there it's a completely different thing.

HEMMER: And it could be that this guy's guilty after all and everything prior to this point was just an absolute charade anyway.

TOOBIN: That's right. But...

HEMMER: Jack, you've got a question. Go ahead.

TOOBIN: Jack, what's that?

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I've got a question. The guy was judged mentally competent to act as his own lawyer. He was allowed to do that. Now we're questioning whether he's mentally competent to understand that he's charged with a crime? That makes no sense to me at all.

TOOBIN: Well, but she was, she never found him guilt -- competent to defend himself at an actual trial. That issue had never been fully resolved.

CAFFERTY: But he's been acting as his own lawyer ever since this thing started.

TOOBIN: He has been acting as his own lawyer and that...

CAFFERTY: But he's not capable of deciding whether he's guilty or not?

TOOBIN: Well, she...

CAFFERTY: I mean I don't understand that.

TOOBIN: Well, I mean, she didn't say he's not competent. She just said wait a week. I mean it's very likely...

CAFFERTY: Why?

TOOBIN: Because I think it's such, a decision of such magnitude where he could die as a result of it, it's worth an extra week.

HEMMER: In a sense you are...

TOOBIN: I know I'm not persuading you. I can tell. But I think she did the right thing.

HEMMER: But, yet, Jack, you make a great point. But I think essentially the judge is buying some time because she got backed into a corner. She was like wow, I did not expect this when I walked into court this morning.

TOOBIN: Right.

CAFFERTY: Well, the other thing to keep in mind is if this thing ended yesterday, all of the publicity that goes to the judge and all the people involved with this would come to a screeching halt. It'd be over. They wouldn't be on TV anymore. Nobody would be writing about them anymore.

TOOBIN: Well, no, but...

CAFFERTY: And we'd go on to the next thing.

TOOBIN: But it wouldn't be over. CAFFERTY: That's a cynical view, but...

TOOBIN: But it wouldn't be over, I mean, because there, at the moment, as far as anyone can tell, if he pleas guilty, they would empanel a jury for the sole purpose of determining his punishment.

HEMMER: Right (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

TOOBIN: And the Supreme Court said last month only juries can impose the death penalty. So there would be a whole new trial.

HEMMER: Yes, well, we mentioned high drama next week. That's an understatement.

Here's Jack again. Jack?

CAFFERTY: I didn't mean to interrupt.

TOOBIN: No.

HEMMER: That was no interruption at all. You're welcome any time.

TOOBIN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

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