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American Morning
Interview with Dr. Michael Baden
Aired July 22, 2002 - 08:09 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Authorities say Samantha Runnion's killer left a tremendous amount of physical evidence at the crime scene in California, including, CNN has learned, DNA evidence linking Avila to the murder.
I spoke with Sheriff Michael Carona earlier about his certainty that he got the right guy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF MICHAEL CARONA, ORANGE COUNTY CALIFORNIA: There were a lot of clues that this individual, that Mr. Avila, left behind and we were able to find all these clues and pull those clues together. Some of those are forensic and some of those are investigative. But trust me, as this thing starts to unfold, I think you'll see a portrait of a great investigation, great information that leads me to conclude at a hundred percent level he's the man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden is one of the foremost experts on DNA and the science of catching killers, and the author of the book, "Dead Reckoning."
He joins us now.
Welcome back. Good to see you.
DR. MICHAEL BADEN, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Good to see you, Paula.
ZAHN: So do you think the Orange County sheriff has the right guy?
BADEN: It sounds like he's got a lot of information to connect him to the crime scene. I think he has the right guy. Why he did it, whether it's a psychiatric reason, that the lawyers will argue over.
ZAHN: The sheriff had to be very careful in his interview today...
BADEN: Yes.
ZAHN: ... because he didn't want to say anything that would compromise the prosecution. But he did admit to me that the arrest was done before there was a conclusive DNA link between Mr. Avila and the body.
BADEN: Right.
ZAHN: I guess he said, and he confirmed on the air, that he was afraid this guy would flee. He also said there was no DNA file on this guy.
BADEN: Yes, that's very interesting because by the time he arrested Avila, there was time to get the DNA. Actually, it takes about three days to get the DNA extracted from a person, a specimen. They had enough time to get it from the child, but not from the suspect, unless they had it on file. Now, because he had been found not guilty in that previous sexual charge, that DNA specimen would not have been able to be entered into the statewide, the California statewide or the national DNA data bank. Only if he were found guilty.
However, sometimes counties keep the DNA in an informal databank and it sounded initially, he was so positive about the connection that Orange County may have had such an informal databank from the prior investigation. But he seems to have denied that when he spoke to you. So he's probably relying, therefore, on other forensic evidence and statements he may have made while the 12 hours before he was arrested.
So the other evidence, there's a lot of other DNA evidence, other trace evidence. There's the crime, the scene where she was kidnapped from...
ZAHN: What could he have left there?
BADEN: Well, shoe prints, tire prints, even a fingerprint if he had touched a ball or a gate. Then there's the death scene where he apparently left a lot of DNA evidence, including...
ZAHN: Tire tracks confirmed.
BADEN: ... tire tracks, shoes, fibers, saliva and DNA which hadn't, which were extracted from her.
ZAHN: And we interviewed a bar guy in the bar...
BADEN: The bar guy, too.
ZAHN: ... who basically took a beer can that Avila had been handling and drinking from and turned that over to authorities.
BADEN: That's a great...
ZAHN: The sheriff said he knew nothing about.
BADEN: ... a great thought, yes. But also the car is a crime scene. He leaves his trace evidence on her at the death scene, she leaves her evidence in his car while being transported, whether it's blood, saliva, hairs, fibers, soil. Remember, there was also soil on the car...
ZAHN: Sure.
BADEN: ... that could be analyzed too, theoretically.
ZAHN: And it has, according to some reports, been confirmed that Samantha put up a darned good fight and scratched him and although police haven't confirmed they were able to seize any DNA evidence from under her nails...
BADEN: Right.
ZAHN: ... or any DNA evidence on him, we don't know.
BADEN: Yes, but it sounds like they have a lot of trace evidence and it's a wonderful example to show how the investigation has to find the suspect. The lab doesn't find the suspect. It makes the case better by relating the suspect to the crime scene, to the death scene.
ZAHN: The suspect's family is now saying that police were also aided by a phone call from his ex-girlfriend, who happened to be the mother of one of those children who he was accused of molesting...
BADEN: Yes.
ZAHN: ... who they said was out to get revenge. Now, she is saying in a newspaper account this morning she was convinced he had come to that complex to get her daughter. Her daughter was living two doors down from Samantha Runnion in that Santa Ana complex.
BADEN: That's very interesting that she said that. That's very possible that was true. And part of the reason I say it's possible, because this is so brazen and this kind of episode is so rare, I mean for a kidnapping/rape/homicide of a child five to six years of age, we're talking about at most a dozen or two dozen a year for the -- deaths, according to national death certificate information. And I think that there may be some peculiar reason for this, either he was trying to get even with his girlfriend or he had a psychotic break or something. It's just a very unusual situation, but, of course, we have the Van Dam situation.
ZAHN: Sure.
BADEN: We have others that we've heard about. But they are unusual. Fortunately they're very unusual.
ZAHN: Of course, Avila's family maintains that he's innocent. He himself says he was at a mall. We'll let the prosecutors sort that out.
BADEN: Yes, I...
ZAHN: Let me turn a corner to the Chandra Levy case, which you did not just mention. You've just been hired by the Levy family to do some investigative work. What are you going to be looking for?
BADEN: Well, remember with Chandra Levy, there's no cause of death. The determination was made, it was the manner of death was homicide, but they couldn't figure out the cause of death. So one of the things we're going to be trying and looking for with Dr. Henry Lee, Dr. Sarah Weigh (ph) is...
ZAHN: The old O.J. team is back together again.
BADEN: We're back, right. But we're trying to look for what the cause of death is and whether there's any evidence on a second opinion. Forensic pathology, like surgery, obstetrics and gynecology, also undergoes second opinions and sometimes a second opinion, as, if you're going to go to surgery, can bring up other things that were, and give different points of view that were missed the first time.
ZAHN: Didn't initial reports suggest that she may have been strangled given the kind of wound that was on one of the fragments in the neck bone?
BADEN: The one that, the higher bone right here above the Adam's apple, yes. There was, it was determined to be un -- the cause of death is undetermined. A suggestion was made that it could be strangulation, but when one goes to trial, one wants to have a definite conclusion, if possible.
ZAHN: Very quickly, do you think your team will ever figure out who killed Chandra Levy?
BADEN: Well, that probably will come more from the FBI, who is looking at the clothing and seeing the, any trace evidence on the clothing. But I think Chandra Levy will solve just the way this, the...
ZAHN: Runnion?
BADEN: ... Samantha, Runnion case is solved, by old-fashioned police work, by going around, by interviewing people, by seeing eyewitnesses, by answering tips, by seeing old girlfriends. What the sheriff did there was the old-fashioned way that most murders are solved. The lab makes the case better, but it's talking to all the people, going back to -- the sketch artist was very helpful.
ZAHN: Absolutely.
BADEN: And then most murders are solved the old-fashioned way, shoe leather, telephones, interviews, and trace evidence is critical in a very small number of murder cases, maybe less than 20 percent.
ZAHN: Well, we wish you luck. Will you keep us posted on the Chandra Levy case?
BADEN: Absolutely. Yes.
ZAHN: Because I know the Levies are hopeful that your team will help unlock...
BADEN: Yes, there's...
ZAHN: ... some information that hasn't been seized so far. BADEN: We will try.
ZAHN: Thank you again for joining us this morning, Dr. Michael Baden.
BADEN: Thank you so much.
ZAHN: Appreciate it.
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