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American Morning
Interview with Dr. Lise Van Susteren
Aired July 26, 2002 - 08:07 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: They say the devil is in the details and the particulars of pleading guilty to conspiracy in the 9/11 attacks made Zacarias Moussaoui do an about face yesterday, withdrawing his plea. As you know, Moussaoui defending himself. Not an easy task in this case. His mother, who was in court yesterday, says her son's incarceration is affecting his ability to reason.
Forensic psychiatrist Dr. Lise Van Susteren also in the courtroom observing the case and Moussaoui live in D.C.
Good to see you again, Doctor. Thanks for coming back with us and good morning.
DR. LISE VAN SUSTEREN, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Good morning.
HEMMER: Your observations from yesterday. What did you see?
VAN SUSTEREN: Well, he was certainly confused about the legal process, obviously in way over his head. The question is whether or not he's intentionally deceiving and manipulative. He certainly has the capacity to do that. But it wasn't apparent yesterday that that was his goal.
Stressed? Yes. How could he not be stressed? The question is is he stressed to the point where he's no longer able to be thought of as competent to proceed? Well, reasonable people will draw the line in a different place.
HEMMER: Doctor, he changed his plea.
VAN SUSTEREN: He sure did.
HEMMER: Does it suggest he's delusional? Does it suggest he's distracted or does it suggest he just doesn't understand?
VAN SUSTEREN: Well, it suggested to me yesterday as I saw him, he was very much in control of himself yesterday, having the morning...
HEMMER: The whole time?
VAN SUSTEREN: Well, when I saw him, which was up until the recess, he was very much in control of himself. He held those papers and he didn't show any signs of nervousness, all the -- he was very attuned to the judge, kind of sitting down when she made a gesture or a statement.
So he's not on some sort of psychotic adventure where he's marching to the beat only of his own drummer. This is a man who is very aware, seemingly, of what's going on.
Now, is this just a frame in a picture that's much larger? If we scratched the surface, would we see that he was psychotic beneath? Possibly. But I didn't see signs of that yesterday.
HEMMER: As a doctor and a psychiatrist, help us make sense of what makes sense to you about his behavior.
VAN SUSTEREN: Well, first of all, we have to say that I have not examined him so I don't know him personally. It's only what I've seen there. So what makes sense to me about his behavior is that he really doesn't understand this legal process. And does he have some sort of culture bound syndrome? Psychiatrists like to have some sort of diagnosis. We don't mind having things be gray. But the issue really is he's in a courtroom now and lawyers need things to be black and white.
So the impression of a psychiatrist is only important insofar as it meets the criteria of the law, which does he knowingly and intelligently understand what's going on? That's the question.
HEMMER: So it's as simple as that, whether or not he understands the law?
VAN SUSTEREN: Yes.
HEMMER: It could be that, is that what you're saying?
VAN SUSTEREN: Yes. Whether we have enough evidence to hang a diagnosis on him doesn't really, isn't so critical.
HEMMER: Yes. What do you make of his mother's comments about isolated confinement taking its toll?
VAN SUSTEREN: Sure. Absolutely. Not only the stress of being alone in a jail and surrounded by people who clearly don't agree with you and your philosophies. Additionally, remember, part of what keeps these guys going, part of the drive and resolve to do or commit a horrendous act -- obviously he's not been judged guilty, but any person, a terrorist, is the force of the group on you, the contagious sense that you are working as a unit. And this is very reinforcing. He's been away from these people all these months.
HEMMER: I have about 15 seconds left here. The trial is going to start in late September.
VAN SUSTEREN: Right.
HEMMER: Do you see anything right now on the outside -- I know you've not personally observed him -- but from a distance, your observations. Is another mental check or another mental examination proper right now? VAN SUSTEREN: Absolutely. It would always be worthwhile. Again, we don't know if this is just bet...
HEMMER: Does he deserve it?
VAN SUSTEREN: Well, of course he does. Sure.
HEMMER: What if the judge says forget about it, I think you're competent, I've sat here and listened to you and I've heard your agreements and I think you're OK?
VAN SUSTEREN: Well, again, reasonable people can disagree. The issue that the judge might not be entirely aware of is that he can look very different in court, where the rules and regulations are very fixed. Maybe back in the cell there is a deputy there or a marshal who knows that left alone he starts getting incoherent and rambling and seemingly illogical.
HEMMER: Thank you, Doctor.
Lise Van Susteren, forensic psychiatry.
VAN SUSTEREN: Thanks for having me.
HEMMER: You've got it. We'll talk again. I am certain of that.
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