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American Morning
Interview with Frank Gaffney
Aired July 30, 2002 - 08:08 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: The government, already conducting one inquiry into who leaked Pentagon plans outlining an attack on Iraq, is now dealing with yet another leak. This one, which appeared in yesterday's "New York Times," is being called "the inside out approach" and calls for attacking Baghdad and isolating or killing Saddam Hussein.
Defense Secretary Rumsfeld says the leaks cost American lives and diminish the country's chances for success.
We are joined now by Frank Gaffney, president of the Center for Security Policy. He joins us now from Washington.
Good to see you, Frank. Good morning.
FRANK GAFFNEY, PRESIDENT, CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY: Good morning, Paula.
Thank you.
ZAHN: Frank, what's with all these leaks?
GAFFNEY: I think they're the result of people who don't want the United States to engage in and affect the regime change President Bush says he believes is necessary. And hope by publicizing one plan after another or expressing unhappiness emanating from the Pentagon or other sources of the government they'll derail this policy.
I think it's insidious and I think Secretary Rumsfeld's probably right, it may well wind up costing us American lives and compromising the mission when, as I think it must, it goes forward.
ZAHN: Democratic analyst Bob Beckel was just a guest about a half hour ago and he shared your view but came at it from a slightly different angle, saying not only is the debate loud and divided right now on the whole issue of going into Iraq, but there are those within the Pentagon who think they're not capable of pulling it off right now and that's the reason for sabotaging the plan.
Does that carry weight with you?
GAFFNEY: I think there may be people who are defeatist about it, people who either have, I think, too low a regard for our own military capabilities, perhaps informed by the concern that we are spread thin around the world and we have seen over the past decade a diminution of our military capabilities, regrettably, through principally a lack of investment in them. Or, alternatively, people who have too high a regard for Saddam Hussein's military power. I think that, in fact, is something that's hard to calibrate with precision.
But as a practical matter I'm sure it is the case that very few people in Iraq, even within his own inner circle and the apparatus that keeps him in power, that police state power structure, there are very few of them who really want to die for Saddam Hussein.
And the question comes down to this, Paula. Will we give them reason to believe there is a greater chance of that than that Saddam will kill them in his own means of or determination to remain in power? If we can change that calculus, I think you're very likely to see the Iraqi people, and including these people around him now, turning on him and dispatching him themselves.
Then the question becomes what do we do to try to assure that that affects a real liberation of the people of Iraq, not simply a new Saddam lite in his place.
ZAHN: Let's come back to the point you just made about changing the calculus. I mean it is true that the U.S. government has given money to opposition groups there for years. It hasn't changed much, has it?
GAFFNEY: Oh, this is really a terribly depressing story, Paula. I think we've not given much money for many years. The money that we have given has often gone to people who promised to foment some sort of coup. And one thing Saddam is good at is ferreting out and liquidating any possible opposition in his own military and Tacredi (ph) clique.
But the real problem, I think, is we have seen over quite a number of years now the will of the Congress, which was expressed in a law back, I believe, in 1998, which directed the funding of the Iraqi National Congress, I think the most representative, the most credible of all of the prospective opposition groups, certainly the most pro- Western, most pro-democratic. And the State Department and the CIA have consistently tried to sabotage that group and continue to do so today.
And this is really fundamentally a thwart what the president hopes to do because clearly, if we've learned anything from Afghanistan, you want to have help on the ground when you do a military operation...
ZAHN: Right.
GAFFNEY: ... and you want to have as organized an opposition in place when the war is over.
ZAHN: Frank, I've got to just squeeze in one last question. We've got 10 seconds left. There is a view out there, and I know you've said this publicly, that you think that if Saddam Hussein knows an attack is imminent he will strike preemptively. There are folks out there who feel that maybe part of the plan by leaking all this is to get him to attack American interests so you could better lay out a reason for attacking him.
GAFFNEY: Well, that's a bank shot that I would hope nobody's really encouraging because the attack may be of a very, very dangerous and malevolent kind. It makes, perhaps, given the weapons of mass destruction at his disposal, and, I think, his willingness to use terrorists as cutouts to use them, it could make September 11 look like a day at the beach. We don't want to give him the chance to go first, I think, and I hope that there's less talk, certainly, in the press about this and more action to get rid of him.
ZAHN: All right, Frank Gaffney, as always, good to have your perspective.
GAFFNEY: Thank you.
ZAHN: Appreciate it so much.
GAFFNEY: My pleasure.
ZAHN: Thanks.
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