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American Morning

Interview with Alastair Goldrein

Aired July 31, 2002 - 08:15   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news out of Jerusalem.

Let's go straight to Jerrold Kessel, our man on the ground at Hebrew University, where the Israelis are confirming at least six dead, more than 80 wounded.

Jerrold, what do you have?

Good morning.

JERROLD KESSEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Paula, it is still a scene of destruction as the clear up continues. All the wounded have been taken away, even though some of the ambulance crew wounded have been arriving at hospitals in the last half hour. More than 80 wounded, as you say. About a dozen in serious condition, another dozen in what's called moderate to medium injuries and the rest likely hurt by the medical definition. And six confirmed dead by medical relief services here as the destruction, the cleanup of the destruction in the cafeteria, which is named the Frank Sinatra International Student Center.

This is the place in -- the main cafeteria on campus. We understand about, it's capable of 150 to 200 people inside and was pretty packed at the time of the bomb. The police are still saying, their working assumption is that this was a bomb, an explosion, but not yet a suicide bombing.

Now, we have with me, alongside me, one of the young students who was on the scene immediately afterwards, Alastair Goldrein. He's been just on the phone with these rabbis who have been calling in anxiously. And he's a student from England who's been in the country for about a year or a year and a half and he's now studying at this Hebrew University campus. And let's hear from you, Alastair, of exactly what you saw immediately after the blast.

ALASTAIR GOLDREIN, TERROR ATTACK WITNESS: OK, so my day in the all panel was finished. The all panels were in Hebrew. I finished for the day and I'm coming around the corner to the cafe where I eat lunch every day, where, in fact, a majority of people eat lunch every day. And I, there was a huge explosion and I can't begin to describe to you how loud this explosion was. It shook the foundations of -- this is a stone foundation. I mean this is huge.

The blast is blowing everywhere. Tables are flying everywhere. Things are flying, everything out the windows. It's backs onto this huge square, the cafe. And things were flying out the windows. Everything was very suddenly quiet for a very small part of time. And then there's wailing. You hear it, there's a wailing. But it's mostly a deathly silence.

And a lot of people ran away expecting a second explosion. I decided I was going to run in and see what I could do. I went in. I can't begin to describe to you the scene of catastrophe, anarchy, whatever you want to describe it as. It was horribly disgusting.

There were bodies lying there, some had been out, looked lifeless and some wailing, walking around with wounds just all over their body, clothes torn apart, food everywhere, as you can imagine. Flesh everywhere. It's horribly, horribly disgusting.

It was literal anarchy.

We then, with a few others, tried to start taking bodies out and outside. Obviously it's going to take a while before ambulances are going to arrive so we did what we could to -- I was trained in first aid a few years ago, so I tried to remember what I could. Wounds but I frankly forgot my (UNINTELLIGIBLE) because they were so appallingly awful. This wasn't practical. This was just something beyond what you could ever imagine.

There were holes in people's bodies. There was no look of life inside them. These were young people. These were people of all extractions, of several extractions, because there were Israelis there, there were Arabs there, there were kids from all over the world here. I mean this is a foreign uni -- this is a university for foreigners as well as for Israelis, Israeli Arabs. This is a very mixed university, a very cosmopolitan university.

I carried out one girl who was obviously of Arab extraction. She was very badly wounded. There were horrible wounds, a lot of people I saw dead. It's one of the worst things having to decide who to help and who not to help. I think that's the hardest thing.

I might as well also add, this university, in fact, this cafe represented what was so harmonious about this university, such that Arabs and Jews and whatever else you want to call people from around the world, everyone sitting together eating their lunch, dinner, whatever you call it, in harmony, in peace and serenity. They used to sit there without any of these political divides that you read so much about in the world.

And I think that's what I like so much about this university. And I am literally very saddened by the damage that could do to the serenity. It was so beautiful here.

ZAHN: Jerrold, can you ask Alastair about any of the eyewitnesses describing to him in this period of anarchy what they saw? Because initial eyewitness accounts suggest that a man cued up in one of the cafeteria lines and he was the one who blew himself up. That can't be confirmed at this hour. I'm just wondering what he's heard. GOLDREIN: Right. I mean I was, as I say, I mean I ran in. It was impossible to tell who was and who wasn't. I mean this is a big cafeteria. It can hold about 200 people. And this, I can't describe to you the scene after one of these explosions. It's total anarchy. It's impossible to know where anything or anyone was.

And unless you'd been there before, you wouldn't have known how it ever could have been, how it ever could have been.

It was, it would have been -- I don't understand how this man could have ever gotten in the place in the first place, anyway. It was very tight security in this university. Your bags are searched every time you come in here, which made one suspects that it might not have been a suicide bomber, simply because your bags are always checked when you come into this university.

So I've been, I'd be surprised if someone had managed to actually bring in an object and place it in this place. There's Arabs working in this cafe. I sit there regularly with Arabs and eat my lunch, and this is what makes this also disgusting.

ZAHN: Alastair, how many people would you say were in the cafeteria at the time of the explosion?

GOLDREIN: I mean it's impossible to know how many people. It was literal anarchy in there. You don't understand. As soon as you run in there you don't look around and sort of think OK, what's going on in here. You literally start running out. You're taking bodies out, you're taking bodies out, you're taking bodies out. There was a lot of -- eventually this became a very active operation. But I mean there were a lot of people in there. It's always a lot of people in there.

I mean yesterday I ate there. There were about a hundred, a hundred and fifty. Now, I don't know how the numbers compare today, but it's always a lot. It's probably the most cafeteria in the whole of Hebrew University. And it's known to be that way. It's good food in there.

ZAHN: And finally, Alastair, rescue workers talked about the difficulty of getting into this area because of the narrow, winding streets leading to it.

GOLDREIN: Right. This university...

ZAHN: What can you tell us about that?

GOLDREIN: This university is situated on Mount Scopus, which is, it's on the outskirts of Jerusalem. So it's -- and I think what we have to bear in mind is this university, there were not anticipating something here. You anticipate things in the center of Jerusalem, in areas which have been targeted previously. Who would ever have suspected someone to target a university where Arabs attend the university? Why would someone target that?

So I think we didn't, you know, people couldn't have anticipated that something would ever happen here. And I think that may well explain the fact that no one actually, you know, arrived in such, you know, arrived quickly, because no one prepared for this. OK, yes, there was security. But who really anticipated somebody targeting a university where the students are 20 years old? Who would target something like this?

ZAHN: Well, Alastair Goldrein, that is a question that we are going to continue to pose all day long, and I'm not sure that anybody will be able to answer that question, but we really appreciate your joining us and telling us what you saw. I know this has been a traumatic morning -- or afternoon at least on your end of the clock for everyone involved.

Alastair Goldrein, again, thank you.

I think he posed the most pointed question of all, you know, how could you target a place where you know there are Arab students learning side by side with Jewish students?

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, I would like to know, Paula, based on the history if Jerrold Kessel or Mike Hanna knows the answer, has this school ever been hit before? Because I tell you in Jerusalem, if you drive up and down Jaffa Road, it looks like every other street corner has been hit at one time. It is so often the target of suicide bombing and terrorist activity.

You can literally be in a taxi cab driving down Jaffa Road and the cabbie will say to you that's the pizza place. That was a year and a half ago. That's the cafe over here. That's the bar down the street. Look down that alley over there, that was hit. Literally 11, 12, 13 stops in about a four block area. And that's not counting the Ben Yahuda Marketplace, which is right behind Jaffa Road.

ZAHN: Sure.

HEMMER: I'd like to know, though, if we can get an answer as to whether or not this has been targeted before. But, listen, this school was crowded. They had an art exhibit planned.

ZAHN: So whoever was responsible certainly knew that that was going to be the case.

HEMMER: They cased the joint. That's exactly right. And...

ZAHN: And Hamas now claiming responsibility. Our bureau chief, Mike Hanna, on the phone with some Palestinian representatives who have confirmed that.

HEMMER: Yes.

ZAHN: Too bad.

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