Return to Transcripts main page

American Morning

Interview with Kate Martin, Victoria Toensing

Aired August 05, 2002 - 08:06   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: A federal judge has ordered the Justice Department to turn over the names of everyone arrested and detained in connection with the 9/11 attacks except those detainees at Guantanamo Bay. Not talking about that group in this argument.
Will protecting civil liberties trump President Bush's war on terrorism? That is the question.

For more on their views, Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies.

Kate, good morning to you.

KATE MARTIN, CENTER FOR NATIONAL SECURITY STUDIES: Good morning.

HEMMER: And former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Victoria Toensing is with us, as well. Good morning, again. Good to see you both.

VICTORIA TOENSING, FORMER ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Hi, Bill.

HEMMER: Kate, tell me this, how many people are we talking about in this group?

MARTIN: Well, we don't know. We're talking about at least 750. But the government has refused to give us the whole total. At one time they said there were 1,082 people who had been rounded up and arrested.

HEMMER: Kate, what's the danger in keeping their names private for now?

MARTIN: Well, these are not people the government has charged with terrorism and the idea that the government can arrest hundreds of people and not give out their names is, it's unprecedented in the United States or in a democracy. And basically the check that we have to make sure that the government is respecting people's rights and is focusing on terrorists and not focusing on random people who might be Arabs or Muslims, is to know who the government is arresting.

HEMMER: Kate, if I go between your words, it sounds to me like you have suspicions. Are you suspicious?

MARTIN: Oh, we have learned a lot of very troubling information. Amnesty International has done a report saying that many of these people were denied access to counsel. Many of these people, although not charged with any crime, have been held in maximum security prisons, denied access to friends. These are people held only on technical immigration violations.

HEMMER: OK, I got your point.

Victoria, what about it? Violation of civil liberties or not?

TOENSING: Well, why don't we get our facts straight first, Bill. There were 120 some people who were arrested and charged with a federal crime. All of those except for one where a court ordered it sealed, all of those names have been released and the charges, of course. That's our usual criminal case.

There were 700 and some people arrested for various immigration violations. Of those, only 70 some remain in custody. So what we're really talking about is 70 some people. And this is not really any victory for civil rights. What it is is more of a defeat for national security.

What Kate's organization asked for was a laundry list of all kinds of information about these 74 remaining detainees and -- like where they were arrested, the date of their arrest and where they're being held in detention, all of those things. The only thing that the judge released, but perhaps the most devastating, is the names of all of those. And I don't see how releasing the names is going to enhance civil rights. But it certainly is going to jeopardize what is our most important mission right now as a country, and that is preventing the next attack.

HEMMER: Let me go to this comment from the judge. I'll get both of you to respond to it. Let's put it up on the screen again. This is a quote now. It says, "The Justice Department's criminal division, the FBI, firmly believe that the information sought by the plaintiffs, if released, could jeopardize the investigation and provide valuable information to terrorists."

Kate, do you see it that way? Do you see that, indeed, if some of these names came out that other terrorist organizations around the world might be able to glean where the investigation is headed and where it's been and therefore putting national security at risk?

MARTIN: Well, that's what the government argued to the court and the court said why would that be the case when -- let me just make clear. The court's order covers 750 people, at least, names. And the court said you've announced to the world when you've arrested an actual member of al Qaeda. You've given their name. You've told what they -- where they were arrested and everything.

These people, you don't even claim are connected to terrorism. Why do you need to keep their names secret?

And the government had no convincing answer to the judge. Let me tell you...

TOENSING: Well, at least not for that judge.

MARTIN: ... the judges are very respectful of claims like this. This judge took the government's case extremely seriously and said tell me why, when you're not charging these people with anything to do with terrorism, you need to keep their names secret.

HEMMER: What about it, Victoria?

MARTIN: And there are hundreds of them.

HEMMER: Overly cautious or not?

TOENSING: Well, I've done -- well, I've done these terrorism investigations back in the 1980s so I'm very familiar in how these kinds of investigations were. First of all, there's no terrorism charge that one is charged with and let me just give an example. Say you don't want to charge somebody that when they were arrested for an immigration violation they decided to cooperate and give information.

Now, releasing the name of that person could very well jeopardize national security.

HEMMER: Victoria, how about this argument? If there is someone in custody now, today, who down the road is tied to an eventual terrorist act, how much of a fear is there in Washington among the administration, the high ranking officials, that there will be absolute hell to pay if they get busted and that?

TOENSING: If who gets busted?

HEMMER: If, indeed, someone in custody right now at some point down the road is tied to a terrorist act, how much of that thought process is running right now through these detainees and through the questioning?

TOENSING: Well, I don't think that's as important as whether these people have information and whether they're people that have certain connections like lots of phone calls from the people who were connected with 9/11, from the same people who in Europe talked to the people connected with 9/11.

Now, that may not be sufficient amount of evidence to charge a person with any kind of crime. But if they have violated the immigration laws, therefore are rightly in custody, then it's appropriate for the government to continue to question them.

MARTIN: Let me make clear that there's no charge here. We're not trying to get the information about these people. We're only trying to get their names. This is...

TOENSING: No, no, no, no. That's the laundry list they want.

MARTIN: Excuse me, I am the person who asked for the information. And we asked for their names...

TOENSING: Well, the judge's opinion says otherwise.

MARTIN: ... where they were arrested. The government has never -- and the government's never even said that they have evidence that these people have information about terrorism. They were asked three times to make that claim in the court and they never made that claim. HEMMER: I'm almost out of time here.

MARTIN: And that's why the judge turned them down.

HEMMER: Now to Kate, I want to give the last word to Victoria. About two weeks time frame right now, but could this be appealed? Will it be appealed? What are the chances of (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

TOENSING: Oh, I am just absolutely certain that this is going to be appealed. I mean the judge didn't even figure out the logistics. How are we going to find people that have been deported back to Pakistan to ask them whether or not they want their names released? This is a very bad opinion and it won't take long for it to be overruled.

HEMMER: Thank you, Victoria Toensing, Kate Martin, in Washington, a story that's not over just yet.

Thank you much for sharing your thoughts today.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com