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American Morning

Interview with John Hulsman, Youssef M. Ibrahim

Aired August 07, 2002 - 08:09   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: We want to get to the war on terror right now and questions about whether Saudi Arabia is a nation of friends or enemies. According to the "Washington Post," there was a briefing at the Pentagon last month claiming the Saudis are active at every level in the terror chain. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld saying that report is "harmful and misleading."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Saudi Arabia is like any other country. It has a broad spectrum of activities and things, some of which obviously, just like our country, that we agree with and some we may not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: The Saudis say reports of their terror activities are pure fiction. Let's talk about it this morning.

In Washington, John Hulsman with the Heritage Foundation is our guest on one side. And also here in New York City, Youssef Ibrahim of the Council on Foreign Relations.

Men, good morning. Good to see you both today.

JOHN HULSMAN, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Good morning.

HEMMER: John, I want to go to you first. I want to put up a quote from the man who conducted this analysis with the Rand Corporation. He says now, "The Saudis are active at every level of the terror chain, from planners to financiers, from cadre to foot soldier, from ideologist to cheerleader. Saudi Arabia supports our enemies and attacks our allies."

Is he onto something here? Or is this over stating?

HULSMAN: I think this is over stating, myself. I think what you're seeing is the United States again seeing the world purely in terms of good and evil, and frankly in the region that's just not going to wash. Saudi Arabia has interests. We have interests. We have to talk in this language. The Saudis for 30 years didn't do everything good. They weren't our bosom companions. And now they're not the incarnation of evil.

The truth lies in between. I think this is a definite over statement. HEMMER: If that's the case, then, 15 or 19 hijackers from the Saudi Arabian peninsula. You have these nationally run telethons which essentially give money to the Palestinians in the West Bank, not that there's anything wrong with that, but apparently a lot of this money is going to the families of suicide bombers.

If you put those in tandem, I think that's where a lot of people have questions. Fair point or not?

HULSMAN: No, I think it is a fair point and I'm not saying that I'm happy about that, as Secretary Rumsfeld said. I think that we need to talk to the Saudis privately. The great thing about me being a Republican is I can believe in secret diplomacy. We can talk to the Saudis privately and say look, you can't talk out of both sides of your mouth. You're actually alienating the United States, which is the one country in the world that can help you deal with your problem, which is the fact that 80 to 85 percent of the men on the street support bin Laden in one way or the other. But alienating the United States by supporting the madrassas, by funding terror, even indirectly, by winking at terror, isn't going to help you.

But that's a conversation to have in diplomacy. And remember, President Bush said the war on terror takes more than just military and intelligence roles. It also has an economic facet and the diplomatic facet. This is a diplomatic problem.

HEMMER: So if that's the case, then, Youssef, do you think it is truly an opportunity for open dialogue?

YOUSSEF M. IBRAHIM, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: I think there are three things troubling in this report. One of them is the call for the occupation of the oil fields. And the second one is a call for freezing of Saudi assets. We must remember that Saudi Arabia has been a very reliable supporter in the war in Afghanistan.

When I was at the American embassy in May, they told me that the Saudis have allowed 3,000 over passes to bomb Afghanistan. And people, most people in the American public don't know the degree of cooperation we have with Saudi Arabia. The Saudis are holding the line on oil prices in OPEC and should they, for example, go along with the rest of the OPEC people in demanding that oil be priced in euros, that would deal a very heavy blow to the American economy.

They have private investment in this country of $700 billion. I can hear this money moving right now as we speak because of that loose talk that was permitted yesterday at the "Washington Post."

HEMMER: But, Youssef, back to this whole idea, this report that was filed at the Rand Corporation that has since been linked to the public, is this the kind of thing that can help deteriorate relations or is this the kind of thing where the government in Saudi Arabia says you know what, we're a monarchy and we know our relationship is firm and it stands on good ground with the U.S.? is it overlooked in that sense, or not?

IBRAHIM: No. It can't help but deteriorate the relationship and I'll tell you why. Because this is not the first time it happens that leaks of this sort come out of the Pentagon structure. And then it takes a little while and the White House denies them and in the process the Saudis and the Arab public in general is beginning to wonder who's running that show in Washington, what is the real plan.

And don't forget, we are asking the Saudis to cooperate with us in invading Iraq. Now, how can we ask them to cooperate with us to invade Iraq when we are telling them we're going to occupy their oil fields and freeze their funds? Somebody is very incoherent in the way we are conducting our foreign policy and there is a total absence of Secretary Colin Powell.

I think the captain of the ship in the White House should really run the show a little more efficiently.

HEMMER: John, what about the Bush strategy right now from the White House perspective? Is it, indeed, on target or not?

HULSMAN: No, I think it is. I disagree with the last comment, though. The Saudis are a vital ally for the reasons that were mentioned -- economically, they're the swing producer in OPEC, they're incredibly involved in the European economy, Europe buys oil from them, our economy is directly linked to Europe's. So there's no doubt about that; on military and intelligence matters, as well.

The Bush people are right, though, and they're right on target because you run the White House with a multiplicity of answers. I want the president to have a menu of options. The Rand option was mentioned. I think doing it would be cutting off our nose to spite our face. I strongly disagree with freezing Saudi assets or doing anything to occupy oil fields. I can't imagine anything more detrimental to the American economy or to the war on terror.

On the other hand, I think it's important that the president be presented with more than one option. The problem in Vietnam was we presented President Johnson with one option. I want there to be disagreement within the White House. I want there to be a couple options that the president has to choose from. That's not a sign of incoherence. That's a sign of intellectual vibrance.

HEMMER: Yes, well, listen, it caused a ripple yesterday and we'll see where it goes from here.

John Hulsman, thanks for your time, Youssef Ibrahim, the Council on Foreign Relations.

Thank you, men for your comments.

IBRAHIM: Thank you.

HULSMAN: A pleasure.

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