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American Morning

Interview with Frank Gaffney

Aired August 28, 2002 - 08:06   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Word this morning now that the meeting between the president and the ambassador from Saudi Arabia did little to smooth over the rough spots between the two countries. Prince Bandar says his country will not support a U.S. strike against Baghdad despite yesterday's statement by President Bush that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the world.
For another view on the state of the U.S.-Saudi relationship, Frank Gaffney, president of the Center for Security Policy, is our guest this morning in D.C.

Frank, good to see you.

Good morning to you.

FRANK GAFFNEY, CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY: Good morning, Bill. Thank you.

HEMMER: You don't have many good words to say about this meeting, frankly, yesterday. You think it was all designed to save face for the Saudis. Explain that.

GAFFNEY: Well, I think I'd put it a little differently. I think this was sort of a damage limitation effort. The Saudis have increasingly been recognized by many Americans, in fact, a vast majority of Americans, to be part of the problem that we're confronting in this war on terror, not necessarily the reliable ally that they're usually described as being. And the behavior of the government and members of the royal family and institutions supported by both are really inextricably intertwined with organizations both in this country and elsewhere around the world sort of advancing a Wahabist (ph), very radical Islamist agenda that's really indistinguishable from that of Osama bin Laden.

So I think what the president was trying to do was to signal that we really want the Saudis to be the reliable friends and allies that they're supposed to be. He didn't get much comfort from Prince Bandar if that was his objective.

HEMMER: Do you think, measure the relationship here. Does the U.S. get by without the Saudis? Do the Saudis get by without the U.S.? Or are they at this point in their country's history now inextricably linked?

GAFFNEY: Well, I think that there will come a time when the Saudis will have to choose. I would prefer to see that sooner rather than later. The president indicated months ago that you're either with us or against us in this war on terrorism.

My feeling is that if the president, and I hope he will, and soon, announces that we are, in fact, going to effect the liberation of Iraq, we will find that the Saudis, perhaps reluctantly, are going to be with us against Saddam Hussein. In fact, I think most of the nations of that region and the world more generally, when they see in particular the people of Iraq welcoming their liberation in a way that probably will make what we saw in Afghanistan look like everybody stayed home...

HEMMER: You know, well, that's a very interesting...

GAFFNEY: ... you're going to see, I think, a lot of support that doesn't seem to be in the offing right now.

HEMMER: I'll tell you why I find so much interest in that response. Listen to what Donald Rumsfeld said yesterday, talking with a bunch of marines out at Camp Pendleton. He was asked what if the U.S. does not get international support, as you just suggested there.

Listen to his answer on this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I don't know how many countries will participate in the event the president does decide that the risks of not acting are greater than the risks of acting. But then what's important, it seems to me, is making the right decisions and the right judgments. And I've found over the years that when our country does make the right judgments, the right decisions, that other countries do cooperate and they do participate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: It sounds like he was listening to you talk, or versa vice there. Frank, listen, if, indeed...

GAFFNEY: We're both listening to each other and I think we agree.

HEMMER: If, indeed, the U.S. continues in the way that you just laid out for us, are you convinced that the majority of countries around the world that now resist this movement will fall in line?

GAFFNEY: Yes, I mean just imagine the scene. When you have the people of Iraq themselves expressing enthusiastic support for the end of this horrible, repressive regime, who's really going to say no, no, no, we want Saddam. We want Saddam to stay in place and the United States is an abomination for trying to bring about his downfall. I don't think it's going to go that way.

The nature of leadership is that you do what is, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said, is right, and you bring people along when you do it. Margaret Thatcher said famously a few years back there's no such thing as leadership by consensus. And trying to get everybody to agree to a sort of lowest common denominator is a formula for, I believe, paralysis and Saddam's continued growth as a threat to both us and our interests and those of our allies in the region.

HEMMER: Bottom line, Frank, did yesterday help relations between the two? Or was there virtually no change?

GAFFNEY: I'm sure that it signaled to the Saudis that the United States still wants them on our side. I hope that it will translate into a greater degree of support from the Saudis for us and an end to the kind of behavior that is really quite harmful both to us and, I think, to the interests of the larger international community.

HEMMER: We shall all see soon.

The Center for Security Policy, the president, Frank Gaffney, in D.C.

We'll talk again, I'm sure.

Thank you, sir.

GAFFNEY: Thank you, Bill.

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