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American Morning

Interview with Harlan Ullman

Aired August 29, 2002 - 09:05   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: A few minutes ago, we told you about the indictment of James Ujaama, charged with setting up terrorist training camps in the U.S., this on top of the arrest of five others in Detroit for allegedly plotting an attack. Do these cases mean, now, there are still major security threats hiding here, or is this a bigger issue?
Harlan Ullman, expert in international security, the author of "Unfinished Business: Afghanistan, the Middle East and Beyond, Defusing the Dangers to America's Security." He is with us this morning in D.C. -- sir, good morning to you.

HARLAN ULLMAN, AUTHOR, "UNFINISHED BUSINESS": Good morning.

HEMMER: James Ujaama, was he even on your radar up until last month, prior to that?

ULLMAN: Not at all. I think the issue here, however, you talk about the bigger picture. There are three things about these indictments that I think are of concern. Sure, there are probably sleeper cells around, but we have to deal with due process and presumption of innocence, and I think we are on a very slippery slope with a lot of these indictments if there isn't more information forthcoming. Second, this Justice Department and this attorney general in particular have been reticent in sharing a lot of information that I think the public needs to know, and certainly Congress is very interested in pursuing, even members of the attorney general's own party.

HEMMER: Take it a step further. How do you, in a free society like the United States, how do you work that balance, how do you tread that line between doing what are you saying, and making sure the U.S. is staying safe within its own borders?

ULLMAN: A very fair question. I think first of all, the issue of credibility is extremely important, and quite frankly, the FBI has had some very rough patches over past dozen or so years. It has had a lot of botched investigations. The fact that it had a mole, Robert Hanssen, the Wen Ho Lee investigation, Richard Jewell, the alleged Atlanta bomber who turned out not to be, so it is an issue of credibility. And the analogy I would use is the Department of Defense. In the 1980s, the Department of Defense was accused of not being able do its business, even buying $600 coffee pots and the like, and it took a long time for the credibility to return to a high level. But right now, the Department of Defense and its secretary, Don Rumsfield, it seems to me are being able to tread that line very carefully, saying that he is only going to tell the truth and disclose it as much as possible.

I think that is what the FBI and the Department of Justice have to emulate.

HEMMER: If you take that argument, and take that half dozen indictments that came out yesterday, does it tell you that perhaps the U.S. is catching up right now?

ULLMAN: It doesn't tell me anything, Bill, because who knows whether -- there is an old saying in the law that a grand jury can indict a refrigerator. Now these people may be guilty as can be, but unless there is more information to support these indictments, unless there is credibility saying we really know what we are doing, I think the public looks at this and just wonders whether or not we really have wrapped these people up, whether there are more, or whether these cases are going to be handled properly or not.

HEMMER: Harlan, absolutely a fair point there. Let me take the converse, just for...

ULLMAN: Please.

HEMMER: ... the sake of devil's advocate here. What if, then, the people in charge of arresting these men across the country, what if they are apprehended, later released, and some people slip through the net. If that is the case, then you come back with a serious charge of criticism about the United States investigative squad not doing their job. How do you find, then, to ensure the fact that you are doing your job and nobody slips through the cracks?

ULLMAN: The problem here goes back to the Constitution and due process. The whole issue of having trial by jury and by peers, some guilty people are going to be acquitted. That is the nature of our process, and the fact of the matter is if you want to arrest everybody on suspicion in the hopes that you get a lot, so that the bad guys really get caught, I think you do great damage to our particular society.

Now, my sense is that these people are probably very low-lying fruit, that the really dangerous people in al Qaeda are in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and elsewhere, and what we are seeing are relatively low- level people. Now by all means, arrest and pick them up, but also let's have due process, and let's inform the American public as much as possible, because without the support of the American public, the war on terrorism it seems to me, is not going to be as successful as it has to be.

HEMMER: I have 30 seconds. You say the Brits do it much better than we do...

ULLMAN: Absolutely.

HEMMER: ... in terms of corporation. How so, lay it out for us.

ULLMAN: The British have, I think, a better -- now, that system is not necessarily one we can impose here, but they have domestic security, which is MI5, foreign security, which is MI6 and Scotland Yard. And I think when you take an organization like the FBI and divide it between counterterrorism, now its first responsibility in law enforcement, you are asking it for too much. So what I would suggest is that we have the equivalent of an MI5 here, a counterterrorism domestic intelligence agency, an MI6, which is the CIA, and then a national law enforcement agency.

HEMMER: It seems like they are moving that way, am I wrong?

ULLMAN: We are going to have a huge debate over the office of Homeland Security and the new department, and my problem is that we are focusing on symptoms, not causes. We have a fundamental problem with intelligence and law enforcement that goes back really to the National Security Act of 1947. We need to focus on that, making sure that we have the right responsibility and authority assigned, because otherwise, you're going to have these gray areas, and we are going to be continually chasing our tails in the future, we cannot afford to do that.

HEMMER: Listen, I am out of time. Come on back some time, OK?

ULLMAN: Please invite me, Bill, you got it.

HEMMER: Interesting discussion. Harlan Ullman in D.C. this morning.

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