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American Morning
Discussion With Seymour Harsh
Aired September 23, 2002 - 07:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: After resisting at first, the White House is giving in to calls for an independent investigation of intelligence failures before September 11. Last week's congressional testimony revealed how government agencies had failed to act on clues.
The only man charged in connection with the 9/11 attacks, Zacarias Moussaoui, is the subject of a piece by Seymour Hersh in the current "New Yorker" titled "The 20th Man."
And Seymour Hersh joins us from Washington.
Good morning.
Welcome back.
SEYMOUR HERSH, "THE NEW YORKER": Good morning.
ZAHN: So, Seymour, I want to start with a little bit of what you have to say in your article. We're going to pull some small parts of it out, where you have an unnamed Justice Department official saying, "Everything we are aware of connects Moussaoui to September 11 and that speaks volumes because there's nothing to compare to that crime. It's a crime of history. The path that Moussaoui took is the heart of the case and at the end of the day, a jury will hear evidence that supports the story the indictment tells."
And then you also include a quote from a former CIA official who has this to say: "They cast a wide net and the guy happened to be a little fish who got caught up in it. They know it. Nobody will back off."
So where does this leave the Justice Department? Is this a winnable case?
HERSH: Well, this is a guy that's up for the death sentence. We have to remember that. He's a guy accused. He's going to go, the government wants to hang him or kill him or whatever. And here's the allegation. The allegation is he, if you remember, he was arrested in August, about four weeks before 9/11. And at the time there's no question he was training to be a terrorist, perhaps. There's no question even of some connection to al Qaeda. He was definitely a member. He's said in court he is.
The only thing, the government says that once he's arrested, he had an obligation to tell us what he knew. He knew what was going to happen on 9/11. He knew these planes were going to fly where they did and do the damage they did. And because he did not tell us, they want to hang him.
The only problem with that theory is they have no evidence for what was in his mind. And have we really gotten to that? Look, 9/11 was a horrible event for all of us and I think if you start looking at the case carefully, you'll see that the case is circumstantial. There's no question Moussaoui fits a pattern. He came here. He may have done anything if the terrorists had asked him to join, he may have joined them.
But there's no evidence they asked him. There's no evidence other than he followed a pattern of some of the other people. And are we going to hang somebody because -- something who was in jail on 9/11 because we think he thought something or we think he knew something? That's just a whole new ball park in terms of legal jurisprudence and it also says something about us.
This is really not a story about Moussaoui, it's a story about us. There were 1,200, I think, Muslims arrested, maybe give or take a few hundred, in the week or two or the month after 9/11. Nobody's been convicted of anything. You know, we lose if we start behaving or changing our standards. And part of my story is also aimed at Mr. Ashcroft, the attorney general, because one of the things, there are a lot of people inside the government who are skeptical about the lack, that there's not enough evidence connecting Moussaoui to anything direct.
As I said, he admits he's a member of al Qaeda. But he's not charged with being a member of al Qaeda. He's charged with being a terrorist. And it seems, it just seems to me that what people wanted to do -- and this is really the core of what I wrote, in a sense -- a lot of people in the government wanted to talk to him. By early this year it's clear we know very, very little about how al Qaeda operated in the United States. And this guy was a player. He got money out of them. He came here. He did the same thing a lot of the other people did and we have him. Let's talk to him. Let's plea bargain with him.
But Ashcroft wouldn't permit plea bargaining because he did not want to give up the death sentence. You know, Paula...
ZAHN: You think that's the sole reason why they didn't plea bargain the him?
HERSH: Well, they didn't plea bargain with him. We know they didn't and we know people, I quote the attorney for Ashcroft -- he's got wonderful attorneys, public -- as you know, he's trying to be his own attorney. He's a little, not to put it, loony, to put it mildly. The attorneys are stunned that nobody ever came to them in, you know, a year or nine months and said let's talk. Maybe your guy has something that we need to know, because we don't know much about how they work.
And, you know, the other point, Paula, is that I'm coming down here this morning and I'm thinking to myself maybe I'd better start this thing by saying hey, I'm not in favor of Moussaoui. I'm not supporting him. He worked for the terrorists. He's a bad guy. In other words, I was going to begin by apologizing, in effect, for writing about him in a way that's not necessarily sympathetic -- I have no sympathy for the guy. But I have less sympathy for our case and putting on a case that isn't solid, putting somebody to death without any evidence, somebody who was in jail at 9/11.
And the fact I'm even thinking of coming in and sort of weaseling around because, you know, I've been around, what, 35 years? Written of My Lai and all this stuff. I'm a tough guy. And yet even I get backed off.
9/11 is very scary. It's scary for all of us, and the press corps, too. We don't really want to go face to face. We have an attorney general, it seems to me, who isn't a big believer in many elements of the constitution that the rest of us -- he's not so big on civil liberties. We should be much more critical of what's going on inside the Justice Department and all of these cases that don't get made and we're not.
We're not really...
ZAHN: Well, I unfortunately would love to have more time so I could counter a little bit of what you've said about John Ashcroft. We don't have time to do that.
Very quickly, then, just a quick yes or no, you don't think there's any way the government gets this guy convicted?
HERSH: Oh, no. He's convicted for sure. I'm just worried they may hang him, too.
ZAHN: All right...
HERSH: Of course, there's a big way. You heard what the attorney, somebody from the Justice Department said. They're going to try, they're going to try 9/11, you know? That's going to be the issue. And...
ZAHN: Well, we'd love to have you come back.
Unfortunately, they're waving me on. We've got to move on to the next segment.
Seymour Hersh, thank you.
HERSH: No problem.
ZAHN: We'll be looking for your article in the latest edition of the "New Yorker."
Appreciate your time this morning.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired September 23, 2002 - 07:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: After resisting at first, the White House is giving in to calls for an independent investigation of intelligence failures before September 11. Last week's congressional testimony revealed how government agencies had failed to act on clues.
The only man charged in connection with the 9/11 attacks, Zacarias Moussaoui, is the subject of a piece by Seymour Hersh in the current "New Yorker" titled "The 20th Man."
And Seymour Hersh joins us from Washington.
Good morning.
Welcome back.
SEYMOUR HERSH, "THE NEW YORKER": Good morning.
ZAHN: So, Seymour, I want to start with a little bit of what you have to say in your article. We're going to pull some small parts of it out, where you have an unnamed Justice Department official saying, "Everything we are aware of connects Moussaoui to September 11 and that speaks volumes because there's nothing to compare to that crime. It's a crime of history. The path that Moussaoui took is the heart of the case and at the end of the day, a jury will hear evidence that supports the story the indictment tells."
And then you also include a quote from a former CIA official who has this to say: "They cast a wide net and the guy happened to be a little fish who got caught up in it. They know it. Nobody will back off."
So where does this leave the Justice Department? Is this a winnable case?
HERSH: Well, this is a guy that's up for the death sentence. We have to remember that. He's a guy accused. He's going to go, the government wants to hang him or kill him or whatever. And here's the allegation. The allegation is he, if you remember, he was arrested in August, about four weeks before 9/11. And at the time there's no question he was training to be a terrorist, perhaps. There's no question even of some connection to al Qaeda. He was definitely a member. He's said in court he is.
The only thing, the government says that once he's arrested, he had an obligation to tell us what he knew. He knew what was going to happen on 9/11. He knew these planes were going to fly where they did and do the damage they did. And because he did not tell us, they want to hang him.
The only problem with that theory is they have no evidence for what was in his mind. And have we really gotten to that? Look, 9/11 was a horrible event for all of us and I think if you start looking at the case carefully, you'll see that the case is circumstantial. There's no question Moussaoui fits a pattern. He came here. He may have done anything if the terrorists had asked him to join, he may have joined them.
But there's no evidence they asked him. There's no evidence other than he followed a pattern of some of the other people. And are we going to hang somebody because -- something who was in jail on 9/11 because we think he thought something or we think he knew something? That's just a whole new ball park in terms of legal jurisprudence and it also says something about us.
This is really not a story about Moussaoui, it's a story about us. There were 1,200, I think, Muslims arrested, maybe give or take a few hundred, in the week or two or the month after 9/11. Nobody's been convicted of anything. You know, we lose if we start behaving or changing our standards. And part of my story is also aimed at Mr. Ashcroft, the attorney general, because one of the things, there are a lot of people inside the government who are skeptical about the lack, that there's not enough evidence connecting Moussaoui to anything direct.
As I said, he admits he's a member of al Qaeda. But he's not charged with being a member of al Qaeda. He's charged with being a terrorist. And it seems, it just seems to me that what people wanted to do -- and this is really the core of what I wrote, in a sense -- a lot of people in the government wanted to talk to him. By early this year it's clear we know very, very little about how al Qaeda operated in the United States. And this guy was a player. He got money out of them. He came here. He did the same thing a lot of the other people did and we have him. Let's talk to him. Let's plea bargain with him.
But Ashcroft wouldn't permit plea bargaining because he did not want to give up the death sentence. You know, Paula...
ZAHN: You think that's the sole reason why they didn't plea bargain the him?
HERSH: Well, they didn't plea bargain with him. We know they didn't and we know people, I quote the attorney for Ashcroft -- he's got wonderful attorneys, public -- as you know, he's trying to be his own attorney. He's a little, not to put it, loony, to put it mildly. The attorneys are stunned that nobody ever came to them in, you know, a year or nine months and said let's talk. Maybe your guy has something that we need to know, because we don't know much about how they work.
And, you know, the other point, Paula, is that I'm coming down here this morning and I'm thinking to myself maybe I'd better start this thing by saying hey, I'm not in favor of Moussaoui. I'm not supporting him. He worked for the terrorists. He's a bad guy. In other words, I was going to begin by apologizing, in effect, for writing about him in a way that's not necessarily sympathetic -- I have no sympathy for the guy. But I have less sympathy for our case and putting on a case that isn't solid, putting somebody to death without any evidence, somebody who was in jail at 9/11.
And the fact I'm even thinking of coming in and sort of weaseling around because, you know, I've been around, what, 35 years? Written of My Lai and all this stuff. I'm a tough guy. And yet even I get backed off.
9/11 is very scary. It's scary for all of us, and the press corps, too. We don't really want to go face to face. We have an attorney general, it seems to me, who isn't a big believer in many elements of the constitution that the rest of us -- he's not so big on civil liberties. We should be much more critical of what's going on inside the Justice Department and all of these cases that don't get made and we're not.
We're not really...
ZAHN: Well, I unfortunately would love to have more time so I could counter a little bit of what you've said about John Ashcroft. We don't have time to do that.
Very quickly, then, just a quick yes or no, you don't think there's any way the government gets this guy convicted?
HERSH: Oh, no. He's convicted for sure. I'm just worried they may hang him, too.
ZAHN: All right...
HERSH: Of course, there's a big way. You heard what the attorney, somebody from the Justice Department said. They're going to try, they're going to try 9/11, you know? That's going to be the issue. And...
ZAHN: Well, we'd love to have you come back.
Unfortunately, they're waving me on. We've got to move on to the next segment.
Seymour Hersh, thank you.
HERSH: No problem.
ZAHN: We'll be looking for your article in the latest edition of the "New Yorker."
Appreciate your time this morning.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
