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American Morning
Interview with Ehud Barak
Aired September 24, 2002 - 08:04 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: More now on Tony Blair's speech, more on the Middle East now. After a night of violence in the Gaza City and where the stalemate in Ramallah continues, Yasser Arafat remains under virtual house arrest in his demolished West Bank compound. The U.S. wants Israel to back off, saying the siege is not helping peace efforts. And the United Nations Security Council has condemned the siege.
Some within Israel are concerned that the show of force will increase sympathy for Arafat.
Joining us now to talk about all these latest developments, former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak.
Good morning.
Thanks so much for being with us this morning.
EHUD BARAK, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit about the rebuke coming from the U.S. government. You had Ari Fleischer, the president's spokesperson, saying that this does not help the chances for arriving at any compromise in the Middle East. And actually the U.S. sponsoring a draft resolution condemning Israel for its siege and demolition of his compound. Your reaction?
BARAK: You know, we are not in a peace process between us and the Palestinians. We are well into fighting against terror. I personally believe that Arafat finished his role when he missed the opportunity at Camp David and we should not kind of elevate his value or draw attention to him beyond what is ultimately necessary.
ZAHN: But you know there are people who, out there who say that Sharon's actions have done just that with this latest siege.
BARAK: Yes, but I think that basically the government found itself with no other means to prove to Arafat that if he is not taking the direct steps to crush Hamas and Islamic Jihad, then he is worthless. Maybe the way to make him worthless was not chosen in a perfect way. But the message is clear. Israel sees Arafat as a kind of an obsolete past leader and we have to wait and stand firm and fight terror until a different leadership will emerge among the Palestinians that will be ready to talk business and to establish those transparent and accountable institutions and will be ready to crush on Hamas and Islamic Jihad. ZAHN: Even you have just conceded maybe the message wasn't chosen in a perfect way. What would have been a more effective way to go about it?
BARAK: Oh, to, I don't want to go into the details. But basically to keep fighting terror any place, any time, however close to Chairman Arafat, without making him personally the issue.
ZAHN: How significant is it, too, that the U.N. Security Council approved a resolution condemning Israel's siege of Arafat's compound and the U.S. abstained, but it did not use its veto power? I guess they called it one-sided because it didn't include Israeli security concerns.
How concerned should Israel be about the rebuke and the draft resolution from the U.S. and now this?
BARAK: Of course we are concerned. We would prefer that everyone would applaud. But we have no choice. You know, we are in a battle. We know the realities of the U.N. I see what kind of obstacles President Bush is facing when he tries to bring together the international will to do the necessary with Saddam Hussein.
Israel is much smaller, much less influential and we take it for granted that at a certain point we do the right thing for Israel and for the world struggle against terror and being ready to take a certain level of criticism from the U.N.
ZAHN: Let's come back to the Palestinians. They say that you have so degraded -- not you, because you're not running the place anymore -- but your government has so degraded their ability to control the extremists that they can't do anything anymore. What is the end goal of this operation?
BARAK: That's, this argument is a manipulation. You know, we gave them and the world gave them and the United States gave them all the opportunities to do the right thing. And, you know, to a certain extent if a legitimate ruler cannot make sure that terror towards others, towards neighbors is coming from within his own area, he is worthless. It's not our responsibility. It's his. It's the lack of will of power on the side of the Palestinian leadership.
And, you know, they missed the opportunities. I paid the immediate political price. The two people paid the price along the last two years. We lost more than 600 people and the Palestinians lost more than 16.
It's not about occupation, it's about dictating suicide bombing as a legitimate diplomatic tool. We will never ever yield to it, period.
ZAHN: What is the end goal, though? The Israelis say it's not to kill Yasser Arafat. What is it?
BARAK: The end goal is to stand firm until the Palestinians realize that they will gain nothing from terror and the time comes to follow the recommendations, so to speak, of the whole world, to elevate Arafat to some symbolic role, to centralize the security agencies in one hand and crush on Hamas and Islamic Jihad and to establish transparent and accountable institutions, also a much more open society.
ZAHN: I know I've got to let you go in about 15 seconds, sir. Just a quick reaction to what Tony Blair said in his speech, essentially saying Saddam Hussein has these missiles that are capable of reaching Israel, a 400 mile radius.
BARAK: It's, I believe that he exposed only part of what he knows about the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction capabilities. Some of the sources are too sensitive to share even with the British parliament and the world. I believe that there are just slight nuances which are totally unimportant between him the president. Basically there is no way to disarm Saddam Hussein without removing him by force. So basically they are talking exactly the same in concrete terms.
ZAHN: So you're saying even Tony Blair said, even though he wouldn't say let's get rid of Saddam, when he's talking about let's disarm...
BARAK: He means the same thing.
ZAHN: ... Saddam and it's the same thing?
BARAK: ... and he's right. There is no way. There will be no stable world order in the next decade or next generation if Saddam Hussein remains in power pursuing his nuclear and biological weapons.
ZAHN: We appreciate your time.
BARAK: Thank you.
ZAHN: Thanks for dropping by here on AMERICAN MORNING.
Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired September 24, 2002 - 08:04 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: More now on Tony Blair's speech, more on the Middle East now. After a night of violence in the Gaza City and where the stalemate in Ramallah continues, Yasser Arafat remains under virtual house arrest in his demolished West Bank compound. The U.S. wants Israel to back off, saying the siege is not helping peace efforts. And the United Nations Security Council has condemned the siege.
Some within Israel are concerned that the show of force will increase sympathy for Arafat.
Joining us now to talk about all these latest developments, former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak.
Good morning.
Thanks so much for being with us this morning.
EHUD BARAK, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit about the rebuke coming from the U.S. government. You had Ari Fleischer, the president's spokesperson, saying that this does not help the chances for arriving at any compromise in the Middle East. And actually the U.S. sponsoring a draft resolution condemning Israel for its siege and demolition of his compound. Your reaction?
BARAK: You know, we are not in a peace process between us and the Palestinians. We are well into fighting against terror. I personally believe that Arafat finished his role when he missed the opportunity at Camp David and we should not kind of elevate his value or draw attention to him beyond what is ultimately necessary.
ZAHN: But you know there are people who, out there who say that Sharon's actions have done just that with this latest siege.
BARAK: Yes, but I think that basically the government found itself with no other means to prove to Arafat that if he is not taking the direct steps to crush Hamas and Islamic Jihad, then he is worthless. Maybe the way to make him worthless was not chosen in a perfect way. But the message is clear. Israel sees Arafat as a kind of an obsolete past leader and we have to wait and stand firm and fight terror until a different leadership will emerge among the Palestinians that will be ready to talk business and to establish those transparent and accountable institutions and will be ready to crush on Hamas and Islamic Jihad. ZAHN: Even you have just conceded maybe the message wasn't chosen in a perfect way. What would have been a more effective way to go about it?
BARAK: Oh, to, I don't want to go into the details. But basically to keep fighting terror any place, any time, however close to Chairman Arafat, without making him personally the issue.
ZAHN: How significant is it, too, that the U.N. Security Council approved a resolution condemning Israel's siege of Arafat's compound and the U.S. abstained, but it did not use its veto power? I guess they called it one-sided because it didn't include Israeli security concerns.
How concerned should Israel be about the rebuke and the draft resolution from the U.S. and now this?
BARAK: Of course we are concerned. We would prefer that everyone would applaud. But we have no choice. You know, we are in a battle. We know the realities of the U.N. I see what kind of obstacles President Bush is facing when he tries to bring together the international will to do the necessary with Saddam Hussein.
Israel is much smaller, much less influential and we take it for granted that at a certain point we do the right thing for Israel and for the world struggle against terror and being ready to take a certain level of criticism from the U.N.
ZAHN: Let's come back to the Palestinians. They say that you have so degraded -- not you, because you're not running the place anymore -- but your government has so degraded their ability to control the extremists that they can't do anything anymore. What is the end goal of this operation?
BARAK: That's, this argument is a manipulation. You know, we gave them and the world gave them and the United States gave them all the opportunities to do the right thing. And, you know, to a certain extent if a legitimate ruler cannot make sure that terror towards others, towards neighbors is coming from within his own area, he is worthless. It's not our responsibility. It's his. It's the lack of will of power on the side of the Palestinian leadership.
And, you know, they missed the opportunities. I paid the immediate political price. The two people paid the price along the last two years. We lost more than 600 people and the Palestinians lost more than 16.
It's not about occupation, it's about dictating suicide bombing as a legitimate diplomatic tool. We will never ever yield to it, period.
ZAHN: What is the end goal, though? The Israelis say it's not to kill Yasser Arafat. What is it?
BARAK: The end goal is to stand firm until the Palestinians realize that they will gain nothing from terror and the time comes to follow the recommendations, so to speak, of the whole world, to elevate Arafat to some symbolic role, to centralize the security agencies in one hand and crush on Hamas and Islamic Jihad and to establish transparent and accountable institutions, also a much more open society.
ZAHN: I know I've got to let you go in about 15 seconds, sir. Just a quick reaction to what Tony Blair said in his speech, essentially saying Saddam Hussein has these missiles that are capable of reaching Israel, a 400 mile radius.
BARAK: It's, I believe that he exposed only part of what he knows about the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction capabilities. Some of the sources are too sensitive to share even with the British parliament and the world. I believe that there are just slight nuances which are totally unimportant between him the president. Basically there is no way to disarm Saddam Hussein without removing him by force. So basically they are talking exactly the same in concrete terms.
ZAHN: So you're saying even Tony Blair said, even though he wouldn't say let's get rid of Saddam, when he's talking about let's disarm...
BARAK: He means the same thing.
ZAHN: ... Saddam and it's the same thing?
BARAK: ... and he's right. There is no way. There will be no stable world order in the next decade or next generation if Saddam Hussein remains in power pursuing his nuclear and biological weapons.
ZAHN: We appreciate your time.
BARAK: Thank you.
ZAHN: Thanks for dropping by here on AMERICAN MORNING.
Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
